memorable randarts

[Nick]

This. This is why rating speed is so hard. The value of speed is nonlinear, and its precisely type of nonlinearity is slot-dependent.

Indeed. And because of this, I think that (despite, I'm afraid, all the work you've put into it) designing randarts by overall object power is doomed to failure. I think the O-style micromanagement by slot is a better approach.

Having said that, though, V randarts still work pretty well. And it's possible that you could add per-slot restrictions/modifications that might improve things.

Here's me, sitting on the fence again.

[Magnate]

Thing with that weapon is that it allows you to use a huge variety of things other than speed, RoDam instead of RoS for example. +10 speed over zero speed is also +100% increase in damage. +20 speed over +10 is 50% more damage and +30 speed over +20 speed is 30% more damage (approx).

It also allows you to move same amount as that damage before monsters get turn and can wake up, so it also helps stealth same amount. Speed trumps (almost) everything else until you hit +30 or so (+20 for those that have easy access to haste).

For classes that do not have access to easy haste that weapon would be rather obvious choice at least until you find something a lot better while still at speed that is manageable.

For armor that is not boots speed is huge bonus. That is why DSM of Speed got removed from game. Everybody ended up using one if they found one. +10 in cloak is better than any normal artifact set armor except Feanor. I would probably use that over Bladeturner-equal cloak in endgame (that is unless I have +30 speed from other obvious choices, like Ringil & Feanor & Nenya & Vilya, and even then it is still tempting)

This. This is why rating speed is so hard. The value of speed is nonlinear, and its precisely type of nonlinearity is slot-dependent.

[Timo Pietilä]

A paladin, that would be worse. I would discard it as soon as I had +10 speed from somewhere else. Similarly with the warrior, unless I have a high to_dam and extra might or shots bow/crossbow. Then I'd wait for +20 speed or an excellent weapon.

Thing with that weapon is that it allows you to use a huge variety of things other than speed, RoDam instead of RoS for example. +10 speed over zero speed is also +100% increase in damage. +20 speed over +10 is 50% more damage and +30 speed over +20 speed is 30% more damage (approx).

It also allows you to move same amount as that damage before monsters get turn and can wake up, so it also helps stealth same amount. Speed trumps (almost) everything else until you hit +30 or so (+20 for those that have easy access to haste).

For classes that do not have access to easy haste that weapon would be rather obvious choice at least until you find something a lot better while still at speed that is manageable.

For armor that is not boots speed is huge bonus. That is why DSM of Speed got removed from game. Everybody ended up using one if they found one. +10 in cloak is better than any normal artifact set armor except Feanor. I would probably use that over Bladeturner-equal cloak in endgame (that is unless I have +30 speed from other obvious choices, like Ringil & Feanor & Nenya & Vilya, and even then it is still tempting)

[Philip]

Yeah thats why I was asking to assume no egos. Those mess up evaluation.

Speed +10 is not endgame quality on weapons. Spear (+10,+10) <+10> speed and nothing else is junk as soon as you have 1 other speed item +10. And such weapons are fairly common, I see them like every 2nd game.

In other slots, it becomes immediate consideration for the endgame kit, but isnt necessarily superior. For example, consider a game where you find a +10 speed helm. If you get speed boots, speed ring, you are likely to prefer an ESP hat over it, or a crown of might for the stats/sustains.

I would happily use a spear 1d6 +10 speed with at least three classes. Mages, rangers, priests don't have to, but can use the weapon slot as a statstick. Mages might be better off doing so, what with Morgy's max damage being melee. A warrior I would briefly consider just shooting stuff with, with a rogue I would probably use it for a long time and not kill stuff much. A paladin, that would be worse. I would discard it as soon as I had +10 speed from somewhere else. Similarly with the warrior, unless I have a high to_dam and extra might or shots bow/crossbow. Then I'd wait for +20 speed or an excellent weapon.
As far as helms go, I probably would use ESP over speed if I already had +10, but ESP always seems to appear on at least two or three randart slots, and then there are cloaks of Magi and such. A helm of serenity would be tempting if I lacked one or two of the things it gives, in such a case I would probably use one.

[MattB]

Tele Other won't help with Plasma hounds, no matter what... And Tele other isn't really an escape; it's a highly effective evasion technique.
Also: no matter how many rods you have, you should still carry wands of Tele other. The fail rate is much lower.

Couldn't agree more, Pete. I was talking about tele other with respect to avoiding the uniques I couldn't fight due to having no speed (rather than the hounds that killed me while I was hunting for speed). I usually do carry wands and rods of TA, but I think I had dropped the wands to carry some extra consumables back to the stockpile I always build in my home, and almost never use (one winner, twice died to Mr M, maybe a hundred attempts in the last two years that never got that far). Needless to say, having dropped them they disappeared from the dungeon thereafter...

[Pete Mack]

Ah, my mistake. I thought RoS was native in the sixties - probably because that's when they start showing up in chests and vaults. The problem was the uniques, not the general mobs (well, apart from the plasma and hell hounds that did for me in the end ). As a HT warrior with no fire immunity I had no reliable tele other options (7 rods, fail rate of 17%).

Tele Other won't help with Plasma hounds, no matter what... And Tele other isn't really an escape; it's a highly effective evasion technique.
Also: no matter how many rods you have, you should still carry wands of Tele other. The fail rate is much lower.

[MattB]

If you can survive dlvl 60 without any speed you can survive dlvl 90. Next time you should dive to native RoS depth ASAP in that case. RoS is native at dlvl 75. Many better objects deep in that depth. Trickery is native at 70.

Ah, my mistake. I thought RoS was native in the sixties - probably because that's when they start showing up in chests and vaults. The problem was the uniques, not the general mobs (well, apart from the plasma and hell hounds that did for me in the end ). As a HT warrior with no fire immunity I had no reliable tele other options (7 rods, fail rate of 17%).

Any how, he's dead and gone but his son, Ran Dunt XVI, is on the way down to level 60 to find that sodding cloak his Daddy missed!

P.S. Thanks for the advice

[Estie]

When my mage found this, I knew I was doomed... That extra radius 1 light is completely OP.

the Lucerne Hammer 'Herenya' (3d5) (+13,+40) [+19] <+2, +1>
Found lying on the floor in a vault at 4500 feet (level 90).

+2 stealth, attack speed.
Slays evil creatures.
*Slays* demons, undead.
Provides immunity to acid.
Provides resistance to cold, dark.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Slows your metabolism. Speeds regeneration.

When activated it restores all your stats and your experience points.
Takes 569 to 766 turns to recharge at your current speed.

6.0 blows/round.
Average damage/round: 549.6 vs. evil creatures, 729 vs. demons, 729 vs undead, and 489.6 vs others.

Radius 1 light.

Thats a nice one, particularly for a mage.

[Estie]

Gondricam is just a spiced up version of Defender ego, and not even very good one at that. It doesn't matter how many artifacts there are if the comparison can be made to weak ego. This is like getting Ringil-equal weapon from Thorongil. +10 speed is endgame-quality, no matter which slot it appears (well, maybe ring slot RoS can beat it if speed is only thing in it)

Yeah thats why I was asking to assume no egos. Those mess up evaluation.

Speed +10 is not endgame quality on weapons. Spear (+10,+10) <+10> speed and nothing else is junk as soon as you have 1 other speed item +10. And such weapons are fairly common, I see them like every 2nd game.

In other slots, it becomes immediate consideration for the endgame kit, but isnt necessarily superior. For example, consider a game where you find a +10 speed helm. If you get speed boots, speed ring, you are likely to prefer an ESP hat over it, or a crown of might for the stats/sustains.

[Malatar]

When my mage found this, I knew I was doomed... That extra radius 1 light is completely OP.

the Lucerne Hammer 'Herenya' (3d5) (+13,+40) [+19] <+2, +1>
Found lying on the floor in a vault at 4500 feet (level 90).

+2 stealth, attack speed.
Slays evil creatures.
*Slays* demons, undead.
Provides immunity to acid.
Provides resistance to cold, dark.
Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
Slows your metabolism. Speeds regeneration.

When activated it restores all your stats and your experience points.
Takes 569 to 766 turns to recharge at your current speed.

6.0 blows/round.
Average damage/round: 549.6 vs. evil creatures, 729 vs. demons, 729 vs undead, and 489.6 vs others.

Radius 1 light.

[Timo Pietilä]

The reason why this looks so much more powerful than Gondricam is that there are 50 artifact weapons but only 5 cloaks.

Gondricam is just a spiced up version of Defender ego, and not even very good one at that. It doesn't matter how many artifacts there are if the comparison can be made to weak ego. This is like getting Ringil-equal weapon from Thorongil. +10 speed is endgame-quality, no matter which slot it appears (well, maybe ring slot RoS can beat it if speed is only thing in it)

[Timo Pietilä]

Ah, but here's the thing about randarts - I never actually had it!
Yes, it's nominally pretty common, but I had been hanging around in the sixties for maybe 50 level generations and it didn't show up! Ironically, the reason that I spent so long around that depth was that I DIDN'T HAVE ANY SPEED!

If you can survive dlvl 60 without any speed you can survive dlvl 90. Next time you should dive to native RoS depth ASAP in that case. RoS is native at dlvl 75. Many better objects deep in that depth. Trickery is native at 70.

[Estie]

Gondricam must be within 20% of 394 or the generator would have rejected the randart. The disparity arises from Gondricam's huge AC bonus being turned into speed. Nobody thinks the AC is anywhere near as good as the speed, because it's in a weapon slot. In my last overhaul of the object power calculation, I implemented per-slot power for most things, but not for AC.

Separately, large speed bonuses are *still* underrated, but I gave up trying to deal with that after four years of trying different approaches. As soon as they're properly rated, everything else breaks.

The value of large speed bonuses depends various factors. First off, lets assume we have an endgame kit and the artifact isnt the first one found - in the latter case the value becomes near infinite, but that is also true for a RoS - so assuming the "normal" setup is 2 big speed boosters, ring and boots, having +10 speed on a cloak possibly frees a ring slot. This is however not true if the speed bonus is on a weapon _unless_ its a godly weapon already without the speed (Ringil). I find weapons with big speed boosts fairly often, but hardly ever use them.

Assuming that cloak frees a ring slot, conceivably it would be used for a damage ring instead - lets say +10 damage (10 speed is on the low end for endgame rings), which means the cloak would be worth about the same as one with (+8, +13) and no speed.

As for the dex boost, the value of that depends very much on race/class played AND other artifacts in the kit. Lets see. The combat stats - str dex con - have about the same importance to get to the cap. A typical randart has maybe a +3 bonus, so lets call that 1 point. You want on average 2 boosts to max out, so the +10 dex would be worth 2 points - same as +6 dex in this estimation.

With con ring and damage ring both being used, they should have about the same value, so lets add another +15 damage (the maximum ring value, since +6 is also the maximum con boost on a ring), so our cloak would become (+8, +27) with lightning resistance

The reason why this looks so much more powerful than Gondricam is that there are 50 artifact weapons but only 5 cloaks. Imagine it being the other way round - 50 cloaks, but only 5 weapons - and also lets assume there are no ego items for the moment - now pick 5 random weapons from the standard set, and add 45 cloaks.

Under those conditions, chances are that Gondricam would end up in this thread while the cloak would be considered mediocre.

[MattB]

Oh sure, I'm not trying to claim that randarts are broken just because there exist broken randarts. There are standarts that are broken too. I mean really, +10 speed in a bow slot? We just think that's normal.

HaHa - Good point!

And I mean really, a pair of gauntlets with rfire, rdisen and FrAct - that's just waaaay overpowered...oh no...hang on a minute...

[Derakon]

Oh sure, I'm not trying to claim that randarts are broken just because there exist broken randarts. There are standarts that are broken too. I mean really, +10 speed in a bow slot? We just think that's normal.