Poschengband game mechanic questions

[mewmew]

Which means, yes, you can have things like Shrieking Mushroom Patches waking up everything in the vault and hasting everything in LOS.

If I didn't miss it when I used my rod of detection on enter I could completely avoid it with a good chance though.

[debo]

Uniques don't resist destruction any more than any other monster might (There is one exception, though, and he is immune to destruction).

Why is _that one_ exception? If anything, the monster directly before or directly after it in r_info would make "more sense".

[Thraalbee]

I only play archers at the moment and find them very powerful. 500 elemental missile damage is available far before lvl 40.

My dark elf scout is extremely stealthy as has good melee and detection as well. I love Nimble Dodge which makes it possible to kill Greater Hell Wyrms and the unique dragons without consuming lot's of expensive potions.
http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=16513.


My demi-god archer is more powerful with the archery but has far less stealth. Only problem is that due to a moving save file between machines mistake I've lost a level and the great artifact bow "Destroying Angel"

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=16341

Of the two I actually prefer the Scout.

[chris]

At least in Vanilla, access to a 500-damage attack spell would be incredibly powerful. Melee characters would love to have listed average damage of 500/round even though that assumes that every blow hits, meaning their actual damage every round is lower. Spells don't miss.

500 damage spells are incredibly powerful in Poscheng as well

Melee can get quite a bit higher (capping at about 1K but this is perhaps 700 when you factor accuracy). However, distance damage should always be less than melee damage since it is safer.

[Derakon]

Thanks for the suggestions, I thought about a mage but when even tougher classes suffer from breathing monsters (monster breath it's my #1 cause of deaths, more than half of all deaths), I'm scared to play one, and honestly their endgame damage doesn't look that good either, ~500 damage manastorms i.e. 500 damage per turn...

At least in Vanilla, access to a 500-damage attack spell would be incredibly powerful. Melee characters would love to have listed average damage of 500/round even though that assumes that every blow hits, meaning their actual damage every round is lower. Spells don't miss.

Yes, Vault can be hard (my very first time there had an awaken ant queen...), but Barrow Downs is easy IMO with just a bit of caution.

The difficulty with the Vault is that there's nowhere to hide if/when things wake up, and there's an incredibly wide variance in the monsters you may face. Which means, yes, you can have things like Shrieking Mushroom Patches waking up everything in the vault and hasting everything in LOS. Given the unpredictability of these quests and the fact of permadeath, usually you'll either do the Vault very early with a high-stealth character, where if you die you haven't lost much time, or very late where you're assured that even if things go badly you'll still survive.

[mewmew]

Oh, thanks for the long answer.

I don't think any character should have late game grind issues (except perhaps a Weaponsmith trying for essences to make bolts of slay evil). Having enough device skill to use a staff of healing makes things much easier until you reach the charge draining end game, and even warriors can use staves with good racial/personality choices (and perhaps with a touch of device mastery too).

Well, my only CL50 went to DL99-100 without enough *healing* potions for the Serpent fight... Possibly because it was a human.

Easiest combos to win with? There are many ways to win. Let's consider normal race class combos:

[1] Distance Spells: I prefer a High Mage, myself with one of Chaos, Armageddon or Daemon for my realm. This gives very strong end game offense and probably the easiest win. However, you will start rather slow, lack detection, be extremely fragile, and will need quite a bit of patience to persevere. Still, vanquishing foes with casual mana storms can't be beat. For more flexibility, you can play a Mage, but you will actually end up much weaker in the end this way.

Recommend: Patient Mind-flayer High Mage (Chaos, Armageddon or Daemon).

[2] Ninjutsu: Even slightly nerfed, ninjas are fairly easy to win with. But be forwarned, they have a unique playstyle that takes time to master. Stealth is awesome and you'll need to garner the right type of weapons.

Recommend: Mighty High-Elf Ninja

[3] Martial Arts: Monks are strongest here, followed by Mystics and finally Force Trainers. The stunning aspects of combat are incredibly strong in the end game. But bewarned: they start very slowly and have severe equipment restrictions. Still, an easy win.

Recommend: Pious Nibelung Monk (Life, Nature or Craft. Never Death).

[4] Melee: This is the most popular approach and starts the quickest. You won't be the most powerful in the end game, but you should do well throughout. There are so many flavors of melee to choose from. I personally do not recommend Berserkers, but you could try a Mauler instead (Severe weapon restrictions, though, but good fun nonetheless). Warriors might be too boring/prone to unexpected ambushes. Try a Samurai instead.

Recommend: High-Elf Rogue (Burglary and Sorcery are good initial realm choices).

[5] Riding (Melee): Hengband has done riding very well, IMO. Your choices are Beastmaster (less melee prowess but can cast Trump spells) or Cavalry. For the end game, acquire a GWoP, don a heavy pattern lance, and giddy up!

For monster classes, play a dragon

Thanks for the suggestions, I thought about a mage but when even tougher classes suffer from breathing monsters (monster breath it's my #1 cause of deaths, more than half of all deaths), I'm scared to play one, and honestly their endgame damage doesn't look that good either, ~500 damage manastorms i.e. 500 damage per turn...

As for ninjas... I won DCSS with stealthy characters several times but PosChengband doesn't have so powerful one shot backstab, and, what's even more important, the goal isn't to get some item but to fight a couple of strong monsters, so I'm scared to play rather low damage ninja too.

Monk and rogue sound as a good idea, I thought about them too, they seem as the best hybrid classes overall.

Also, speaking of berserkers, I haven't tried yet, but I'm surprised why people don't play gnome berserkers, their racial phase door ability sounds as a strong escape tool, possibly stronger in some situations than spectre's passwall, especially if its range get longer with level (Zangband spoilers say it does, but it probably was changed so I dunno). But when I imagine I look for all the stairs manually....

Dragons are amazing but those resistance holes... Crystal dragons seem to be the best ones?

I disagree on both of those quests: they are not gimmes! You'll need stealth in both instances which angels definitely lack.

Yes, Vault can be hard (my very first time there had an awaken ant queen...), but Barrow Downs is easy IMO with just a bit of caution.

My angel killed stuff in Barrow Downs as my archers usually do, i.e. extinguished them from afar with a bow and telepathy/sense undead mashing one button, except archers do it way faster, but if I hadn't forgotten emperors had nether bolts (actually I'm not sure if even knew that) and had taken a reflection amulet/shield or had more hp or just watched my hp I would have cleared it without much problem too/

And as for Vaults, it was rather funny, it was my absentmindedness, and I think even 'Legendary' stealth wouldn't help there, I opened the first door and nearly bumped into a shrieking mushroom >< Do those mushrooms even sleep? Also that angel had 'Heroic' stealth which is IMO quite good for that quest. Bad luck too, and the quest had a mature multi-hued dragon and some other nasties, a tougher character could probably still complete the quest with teleroulette (i.e. like DCSS players steal runes/orb - lots of random teleports to get into all the rooms) or even kill them all.

Shooting should be strong, perhaps stronger than melee in the end. I'm not sure why they are unpopular. For me, it definitely does have to do with ammo management. It's not bad, as you say, but it is annoying.

Perhaps the main problem is the melee is too convenient (arrow keys for all your attacks). To compensate, I recommend the following change:

[1] To attack monsters you press the 'w' key (for weapons).
[2] You are then prompted to choose which weapon to attack with (even if only wearing one). Press 'a' to use your only weapon.
[3] You are then prompted for a target (even if there is only one in sight). To make things fair, the targeting algorithm defaults to the most distant monster first. It should require at least 8 keystrokes to land on that adjacent orc that you want to attack. Also, the game should reprompt for a target every time just to make sure you didn't change your mind.
[4] After this, you attack with a single strike even if you have multiple blows. This is a boon, really, as you can spread your attacks among multiple foes (at the cost of a few measly keystrokes). So if you have 8 attacks per round, repeat this process 8 times.

I don't have enough experience to judge of its damage comparing to melee but it definitely has some advantages, like making the damage from afar and having more time to react on monster moves (since shooting spends a part of the turn only). Since you say that its damage isn't lacking comparing to melee in the endgame I probably stay with archery.

And as for the hassle... I dunno, I simply have two macro, [F1] *tf1 and [F2] f2 where #1 ammo it's ordinary arrows and #2 ammo it's seeker arrows. So when I enter a room with weaker monsters I mash [F1] till they all are dead. It's especially convenient with telepathy, the only danger is to run out of arrows. I don't need to chase them and to bump into each of them, it's actually faster than with melee, I gather ammo back automatically when I look for the loot, and when I fight strong monsters I manually set the target and them press [F2], if it's an especially strong monster I press [F2] and then list messages with [Space] instead of pressing [F2] again :3, very rarely (like shooting mimics in the mimic quest from the line of sight) I press f + 1 or 2 manually. Converting skeletons is a bit of hassle though, but not that much, as soon as I learned to throw away all non seeker arrows.

Oh, I forgot to mention one of the main drawbacks of archery, it's that shooters are very rare, you may find several artifact melee weapon before you find a single ego shooter, and as for artifact shooters they are even more rare. Even plain long bows are rarer than artifact melee weapon. Archery is still powerful even with default shooter though.

[debo]

Yes, the messages are flavor. But for the Time Lord, time based attacks also have random effects, such as slowing the monster (temp or permanent), amnesia, shrinking the monster (you were smaller when younger, no?), evolving or devolving the monster (scary when that huorn evolves into a hostile ent!) and quite a few other effects.

This sounds amazing.

[chris]

That's not always safe; many monsters who follow-tele also resist teleportation. Some (all?) uniques also resist destruction, although it's rare.

Teleport Other is the best option. No monster that resists teleport should follow you when you teleport (see teleport_player in spells3.c). If there are exceptions to this, I would consider that a bug!

Uniques don't resist destruction any more than any other monster might (There is one exception, though, and he is immune to destruction). Rather, every monster gets a saving throw versus the power of the destruction effect. If they make their saving throw, there is a small chance they pick up immunity so that destruction will never work on them.

[chris]

They are all the same effect. Just different flavor. Afair, they just do normal time dmg.

Yes, the messages are flavor. But for the Time Lord, time based attacks also have random effects, such as slowing the monster (temp or permanent), amnesia, shrinking the monster (you were smaller when younger, no?), evolving or devolving the monster (scary when that huorn evolves into a hostile ent!) and quite a few other effects.

[chris]

Sorry, I've been away from computer for quite a while ...

Hm, I have a question again... What do you think is the best/safest combo to win the game without too much late game grind?

I don't think any character should have late game grind issues (except perhaps a Weaponsmith trying for essences to make bolts of slay evil). Having enough device skill to use a staff of healing makes things much easier until you reach the charge draining end game, and even warriors can use staves with good racial/personality choices (and perhaps with a touch of device mastery too).

Easiest combos to win with? There are many ways to win. Let's consider normal race class combos:

[1] Distance Spells: I prefer a High Mage, myself with one of Chaos, Armageddon or Daemon for my realm. This gives very strong end game offense and probably the easiest win. However, you will start rather slow, lack detection, be extremely fragile, and will need quite a bit of patience to persevere. Still, vanquishing foes with casual mana storms can't be beat. For more flexibility, you can play a Mage, but you will actually end up much weaker in the end this way.

Recommend: Patient Mind-flayer High Mage (Chaos, Armageddon or Daemon).

[2] Ninjutsu: Even slightly nerfed, ninjas are fairly easy to win with. But be forwarned, they have a unique playstyle that takes time to master. Stealth is awesome and you'll need to garner the right type of weapons.

Recommend: Mighty High-Elf Ninja

[3] Martial Arts: Monks are strongest here, followed by Mystics and finally Force Trainers. The stunning aspects of combat are incredibly strong in the end game. But bewarned: they start very slowly and have severe equipment restrictions. Still, an easy win.

Recommend: Pious Nibelung Monk (Life, Nature or Craft. Never Death).

[4] Melee: This is the most popular approach and starts the quickest. You won't be the most powerful in the end game, but you should do well throughout. There are so many flavors of melee to choose from. I personally do not recommend Berserkers, but you could try a Mauler instead (Severe weapon restrictions, though, but good fun nonetheless). Warriors might be too boring/prone to unexpected ambushes. Try a Samurai instead.

Recommend: High-Elf Rogue (Burglary and Sorcery are good initial realm choices).

[5] Riding (Melee): Hengband has done riding very well, IMO. Your choices are Beastmaster (less melee prowess but can cast Trump spells) or Cavalry. For the end game, acquire a GWoP, don a heavy pattern lance, and giddy up!

For monster classes, play a dragon

I'm ready to give up on angels, they feel so weak, they are relatively easy to level up in wilderness on hounds and dragons but still. I lost two lvl30 angels, one of them into Barrow Downs quest and another in Vault quest. It's ridiculous to lose characters in those quests/ They are too squishy and too no damage.

I disagree on both of those quests: they are not gimmes! You'll need stealth in both instances which angels definitely lack.

Also they seem to have some unclear weight restriction for their equipment, I got message that my equipment encumbers me many times without any visible effect.

Encumbrance reduces your mana. Sometimes you get the message with no actual reduction if you are right on the edge of encumbrance. But just try wielding a Mace of Disruption and you will definitely notice the effect!

Oh, and also nobody won poscheng with a shooting class yet (archer, sniper, scout, any ranged weaponmaster) so it probably means they have some weakness too (and it's definitely not annoyance of dealing with ammo, that is not that bad).

Shooting should be strong, perhaps stronger than melee in the end. I'm not sure why they are unpopular. For me, it definitely does have to do with ammo management. It's not bad, as you say, but it is annoying.

Perhaps the main problem is the melee is too convenient (arrow keys for all your attacks). To compensate, I recommend the following change:

[1] To attack monsters you press the 'w' key (for weapons).
[2] You are then prompted to choose which weapon to attack with (even if only wearing one). Press 'a' to use your only weapon.
[3] You are then prompted for a target (even if there is only one in sight). To make things fair, the targeting algorithm defaults to the most distant monster first. It should require at least 8 keystrokes to land on that adjacent orc that you want to attack. Also, the game should reprompt for a target every time just to make sure you didn't change your mind.
[4] After this, you attack with a single strike even if you have multiple blows. This is a boon, really, as you can spread your attacks among multiple foes (at the cost of a few measly keystrokes). So if you have 8 attacks per round, repeat this process 8 times.

[Regalia]

I was curious about some of the effects I've seen Time Lords cause on monsters - specifically 'amnesia' from time attacks, and the 'chronosmash' and 'fluxcapacitor' effects from the time Shield. Could someone please tell me what these mean?

They are all the same effect. Just different flavor. Afair, they just do normal time dmg.

[ThunderToads]

I was curious about some of the effects I've seen Time Lords cause on monsters - specifically 'amnesia' from time attacks, and the 'chronosmash' and 'fluxcapacitor' effects from the time Shield. Could someone please tell me what these mean?

[Derakon]

Assuming this hasn't changed since Vanilla, all methods of genociding/mass genociding will damage you for each monster removed. *Destruction* doesn't deal HP damage but will blind you unless you resist light.

[mewmew]

Yet another question, sorry if I have too many of them :3

Do the scrolls of genocide and mass genocide damage you per genocided monster like the spell does? I always die with unused scrolls before I can find a situation to try myself ><

[mewmew]

Thanks. Do you know the range at which they follow, i.e. if you blink a few tiles away in the same room, can they follow your teleportaton? It's probably better to destruct in that case though and then to tele if they weren't destructed since you would place a wall between you...