Your views wanted on artifacts in V

[Magnate]

The fact that more negative qualities are coming relatively soon make me think that perhaps we could wait for that before tweaking artifacts.

I don't agree with you here: yes we know that Takk wants to rework curses for 3.2, but I don't think that obviates the need to tweak the artifact set now. The new curses will need lots of playtesting and balancing on their own, so I'd be surprised if he splattered them over artifacts right away.

Besides, I was a bit stuck on my more complicated tickets, and this one's been waiting for a long time ...

Also, I think concentrating on single artifact properties out of context is too much of a simplification. For example, while one might not use an artifact like Haradrim because of the aggravation, it comes back into consideration if you find the Palantir.

Agreed. What I've tried to do is make the individual aggravators more likely to be kept around to be used in combination.

In summary, you're all idiots and I'm great.

As a self-confessed idiot I have no argument with you there.

[Magnate]

@magnate--sorry about that.
I actually like the changes for the most part. But I do think the changes to the +CON amulets are going to be too big.

As for the +2 blows and the rNether (possibly): mea culpa. That's what I get for trying to review your changes on an iPod while riding the bus.

No worries Pete - you might be right about the amulets, but I was coming from the POV that of all the equipment slots JLE boosted with new egos, amulets was about the biggest: Devotion, Weaponmastery, Trickery. So the artifact amulets needed a bit of a boost, I felt. But yeah, knocking one off the pvals of each with CON might be necessary.

[Pete Mack]

Okay, I guess I'm remembering the *old* *thancs.

Eddie and I are talking about the old thancs! For straight up damage, you aren't likely to do better until around dl40, if you are diving fast.

[Atarlost]

Okay, I guess I'm remembering the *old* *thancs.

[Pete Mack]

The thancs have 2d4. To get 2d5 you have to go to a longsword, 4 times as heavy as the 3lb minimum for computing blows.

Yup. Thancs beat all early ego weapons except +attacks hands down. Yes there are better early artifacts, but they are much less common.

[PowerDiver]

the *thancs really aren't because of their weak dice

The thancs have 2d4. To get 2d5 you have to go to a longsword, 4 times as heavy as the 3lb minimum for computing blows.

[PowerDiver]

Are you implying that brand egos are less useful than *thanc? Or are you simply trying to say you don't want the artifacts to be common, because you would rather have the egos?

Narthanc is better than any ego fire branded weapon until you can get at least 3 blows with the ego [because if it has bigger dice you will get twice as many blows with Narthanc] and by then you've got something better anyway. If you make it too common, you might as well eliminate the ego.

Then I also have problems with the implications of distribution sampling telling me that say half of all fire branded daggers in the dungeon are Narthanc, but that doesn't really matter to gameplay.

[Atarlost]

The old *thanc were so weak they were barely worth anything. You might well choose a rapier of fire over narthanc if you could get as many blows with it because of the dice. They really only truly obsoleted daggers because they have so little use beyond being a branded dagger. Paur* are a useful superset of the corresponging ego, but the *thancs really aren't because of their weak dice unless a dagger is the heaviest thing you can get multiple blows with.

[Pete Mack]

@magnate--sorry about that.
I actually like the changes for the most part. But I do think the changes to the +CON amulets are going to be too big.

As for the +2 blows and the rNether (possibly): mea culpa. That's what I get for trying to review your changes on an iPod while riding the bus.

[Nick]

Thanks Pete - I love the way you're so relentlessly positive about my contributions.

Any involvement in maintaining V makes you a legitimate target

Along the lines of a recent post of mine about randarts, I'd suggest that having a greater variety of negative qualities available would make the balancing of artifacts very much easier. The fact that more negative qualities are coming relatively soon make me think that perhaps we could wait for that before tweaking artifacts.

Also, I think concentrating on single artifact properties out of context is too much of a simplification. For example, while one might not use an artifact like Haradrim because of the aggravation, it comes back into consideration if you find the Palantir.

In summary, you're all idiots and I'm great.

[fizzix]

Just make these artifacts rarer (and rarer still if necessary), so they won't consistently render other items obsolete. Hell, *thanc and paur* could show up at DL1, as long as it's extremely rare. It's a better option than eliminating them.

yes, that is the obvious solution. 4 out of 5 games you wield a weak ego during dlevels 5-10 and the 1 out of 5 you wield an early artifact. Seems fine to me.

[buzzkill]

Regardless of whether we can agree with what I said above, I think we can all agree that we don't want a determined set of equipment. If you automatically wield *thanc at dlevel 5 and paur* at dlevel 10 every game then we've completely crushed the random aspect that makes the game so fun and replayable.

Just make these artifacts rarer (and rarer still if necessary), so they won't consistently render other items obsolete. Hell, *thanc and paur* could show up at DL1, as long as it's extremely rare. It's a better option than eliminating them.

[fizzix]

Are you implying that brand egos are less useful than *thanc? Or are you simply trying to say you don't want the artifacts to be common, because you would rather have the egos?

Disclaimer: I have not tried the new set yet, and probably won't get the chance until this is already solved.

I think the point is that just making an artifact useful is not good enough *if* it also obsoletes an ego item which won't show up until after you have the artifact. There is a very small window of the game in which a branded weapon is going to be your weapon of choice. If you find a more powerful artifact always before you find a branded weapon, what's the point of having branded weapons at all? So the problem isn't just useless artifacts, it's useless egos also, and artifact/ego balance.

Ask yourself when was the last time you ever used a basic slay weapon in a game? Those have the smallest windows of usefulness of all.

Regardless of whether we can agree with what I said above, I think we can all agree that we don't want a determined set of equipment. If you automatically wield *thanc at dlevel 5 and paur* at dlevel 10 every game then we've completely crushed the random aspect that makes the game so fun and replayable.

If that's not Eddie's point, it's still my point.

[Marble Dice]

The brand egos have a rarity of 8 to 10. Surely the thancs should have a minimum rarity of 10.

Are you implying that brand egos are less useful than *thanc? Or are you simply trying to say you don't want the artifacts to be common, because you would rather have the egos?

[PowerDiver]

If the changes result in them being used more often, that's a measure of success - but I'm no expert in depth/rarity stuff so it's possible that I have overcompensated and things will have to be tweaked back a bit.

I disagree. The current situation is too many useful artifacts being dropped. What we need is less junky artifacts, not more useful ones. If you want variety, than I suppose more numerically is fine so long as drop rates go down so there are fewer being generated.

The brand egos have a rarity of 8 to 10. Surely the thancs should have a minimum rarity of 10. Telepathy has a rarity of 6, so Thranduil should have a rarity at least 6. I don't know what the odds of an ego turning into an artifact are, but even if it is 1 in 10 I think at a minimum the rarities on the artifacts should match the rarities on the lesser egos.

I'm probably going overboard here, but artifact inflation is out of control, so excuse me while I overreact.