Your views wanted on artifacts in V

[Magnate]

For what it's worth I agree with you, because aggravation is basically broken. I'd rather see aggravation changed to a stealth penalty - i.e. the pval is subtracted from stealth if the aggravation flag is there.

I also agree with the view (originally from Pete Mack, IIRC) that aggravating items should really be "best in slot" - though that applies to all three of Deathwreaker, Doomcaller and Calris IMO. Not many ppl will agree with you about Doomcaller - it's still the second-best damage dealing weapon in the game.

Umbar and Haradrim are new JLE items, as is Mediator. JLE was way too fond of aggravation ... but if there's one item that really could do with it removed, IMO it's Hammerhand.

[Estie]

Sure. I kind of assumed "remove aggravation" as the norm, so I was really looking for views on what could be done with them other than removing aggravation.

Under the right circumstances, Calris frees a ring and a shield slot and on top of that, does the most damage against dragons from all the weapons youre likely to have. That certainly warrants situational use.
Hammerhand, otoh, is a crown of might with res_nexus. Maybe adding Imm_lightning would make it interesting, but the minor tweaks you listed wont prevent it from being discarded.

Deathwreaker is the best weapon in the game; it gets used despite aggravation.
Doomcaller has other drawbacks already - it craps the AC and messes up resting; aggravation on top leads to me hoping that a detected Blade of Chaos will be any random ego rather than the stupid artifact.

From my list, Hammerhand, Zarcuthra, Umbar and Haradrim arent cut out to be the globally best in slot (because they are too common and/or not deep enough), but if aggravation is desired, it is probably possible to add powers so they become useful under the right circumstances in some stage of the game. Those powers will need to go beyond "minor tweaks" though.

However, I dont think that doing that for all of them would be a good idea.
Calris is good; it adds to the game. A long list of common, powerful, aggravating artifacts guarantees that most every game will be centred around "working with aggravation". Maybe one or two others, if they are rare and the concept is good, would be ok. For everything else, id rather see either the item itself or the aggravation removed.

[PowerDiver]

I have personally used all of Gondricam, Hithlomir and Cammithrim so I don't quite agree with your list, but it's welcome anyway.

Sure, I have used Hithlomir, but given the opportunity to trade it for a random ego I can hope would be elvenkind, I would jump at the chance. The way object generation works, an artifact name is essentially a superego that overwrites the random ego you would otherwise have gotten. Hithlomir is not good enough to me that I would prefer it to a lottery ticket for elvenkind with a more useful high resist.

[takkaria]

I don't know that it's possible to put a max depth on artifacts - they don't use the same alloc_prob as base items (I could make them do so, but that's for another patch).

I have personally used all of Gondricam, Hithlomir and Cammithrim so I don't quite agree with your list, but it's welcome anyway.

Feel free to file a bug for that. I need to rework the object distribution system again anyway for 3.1.2...

[Tatami]

I think at least removing aggravate from the artifact dsm would be sweet as seeing they are so rare. When you manage to find one it would actually be useful to any stealthy @.

[Magnate]

These artifacts are junk and should be removed.

Evenstar
Razorback
Hithlomir
Celegorm
Beruthiel
Hammerhand
Gorlim
Eol
Cammithrim
Camlost
Mormegil
Gondricam
Elvagil
Melkor
Osondir
Til-i-arc
Lotharang
Avavir
Firestar
Nar-i-vagil

I'm sure I missed a few, but that's a start.

For some others, you could put a maximum depth on them. The thancs are great early, but perhaps not interesting below 3000'.

I don't know that it's possible to put a max depth on artifacts - they don't use the same alloc_prob as base items (I could make them do so, but that's for another patch).

I have personally used all of Gondricam, Hithlomir and Cammithrim so I don't quite agree with your list, but it's welcome anyway.

[Magnate]

Well, I took that literally.

Sure. I kind of assumed "remove aggravation" as the norm, so I was really looking for views on what could be done with them other than removing aggravation.

[PowerDiver]

These artifacts are junk and should be removed.

Evenstar
Razorback
Hithlomir
Celegorm
Beruthiel
Hammerhand
Gorlim
Eol
Cammithrim
Camlost
Mormegil
Gondricam
Elvagil
Melkor
Osondir
Til-i-arc
Lotharang
Avavir
Firestar
Nar-i-vagil

I'm sure I missed a few, but that's a start.

For some others, you could put a maximum depth on them. The thancs are great early, but perhaps not interesting below 3000'.

[edit] I wonder if something similar to the relation (base damage < weight/2) implies that brands and slays are essentially wasted. The only way a scythe is interesting is if you toss lots of defense, like defender + stat bonuses. You're going to use something else if you want to deal melee damage.

[Estie]

I don't mind hearing views on aggravators, but let's not waste time trying to rescue Mormegil or Camlost.

Well, I took that literally.

[Magnate]

Razorback: remove aggravation
Mediator: remove aggravation
Hammerhand: remove aggravation
Zarcuthra: remove aggravation
Doomcaller: remove aggravation
Umbar: remove aggravation
Haradrim: remove aggravation

Uh ... thanks. No go on most of those. Possibly the two DSMs, as they are less useful than standard MH or Balance DSMs with aggravation - but removing aggravation is beyond the small tweaks I was talking about.

I liked a lot of your other suggestions though - thanks.

[Djabanete]

Carlammas: increase pval to 4
Ingwe: add res confusion
Dwarves: up depth to 50

Razorback: remove aggravation
Mediator: remove aggravation
Belegennon: apply pval to dex
Hammerhand: remove aggravation
"Paur"-gloves: add weapon branding property, remove activation, increase depth to 30 and rarity to 5

Zarcuthra: remove aggravation
Elvagil: reduce weight to 80
Doomcaller: remove aggravation
Osondir: reduce weight to 140
Lotharang: increase base damage to 3d8
Avavir: reduce weight to 150
Firestar: increase base damage to 3d6
Turmil: add slay_evil

Umbar: remove aggravation
Haradrim: remove aggravation

I haven't played Vanilla in a while, but based on my recollections, I think these are extremely sensible recommendations.

[Magnate]

More reliable and frequent activation would help those. Currently the activations aren't anything you can rely on and are therefore useless and useless is uninteresting. I'd say any artifact activation that isn't useful in its current state needs to be improved or removed. Just doing that will do more to help stuff like the *thanc, Paur*, and Firestar than level or rarity adjustment or tweaking flags or pvals.

I can certainly change the recharge times, but sadly the reliability is an issue of magic device skill, which is a separate piece of work. (I am actually in the middle of that, taking a breather before moving to a quadratic formula - but in any event that won't suddenly make the activations easier.)

AFAIK activation is tied to depth, so if I make them shallower that should make the activation easier.

[Estie]

Carlammas: increase pval to 4
Ingwe: add res confusion
Dwarves: up depth to 50

Razorback: remove aggravation
Mediator: remove aggravation
Belegennon: apply pval to dex
Hammerhand: remove aggravation
"Paur"-gloves: add weapon branding property, remove activation, increase depth to 30 and rarity to 5

Zarcuthra: remove aggravation
Elvagil: reduce weight to 80
Doomcaller: remove aggravation
Osondir: reduce weight to 140
Lotharang: increase base damage to 3d8
Avavir: reduce weight to 150
Firestar: increase base damage to 3d6
Turmil: add slay_evil

Umbar: remove aggravation
Haradrim: remove aggravation

[Atarlost]

More reliable and frequent activation would help those. Currently the activations aren't anything you can rely on and are therefore useless and useless is uninteresting. I'd say any artifact activation that isn't useful in its current state needs to be improved or removed. Just doing that will do more to help stuff like the *thanc, Paur*, and Firestar than level or rarity adjustment or tweaking flags or pvals.

[Magnate]

There are a couple of pairs of (early artifact) similar sounding gauntlets/gloves that are never useful by the time that I find them. I'd make them appear earlier, and so they don't constantly displace normal gear, a little rarer maybe.

You're talking about Paurhach, Pauregen and the others, collectively known as Paur*. Yes, these are top of the list to be saved, along with the 'thancs. They would be quite good if you found them before dl20.