Your views wanted on artifacts in V

[Magnate]

A quick diff shows
1. Amulet changes are too good
2. Too much rNether
3. +2 blows is a dangerous addition
4. Artifact depths should generally be deeper than object native depth
5. Probably too many speed bonuses.
6. Artifacts are going to litter the floor at shallow depths

Thanks Pete - I love the way you're so relentlessly positive about my contributions. Briefly:

1. Carlammas and Ingwe were suggestions from this thread which seemed ok (though I agree that Ingwe may not have needed that suggested change). I tweaked Dwarves because otherwise its CON boost was lower than Carlammas (I did quite a bit of consequential tweaking to avoid that kind of outcome). Evenstar was just an idea to see if Eddie no longer considered it junk - segues nicely into:

2. Precisely two. Rnether was previously the least common resistance in the artifact set - a fact which has been remarked upon many times over the years. Four or five additions might have been too much, but not two.

3. Indeed it is. That's why it was only added to one weapon, which aggravates. (I also thought I added three blows to Gothmog, but as has been pointed out I failed to notice that its pval is -3!)

4. Agreed, with the exception of really crappy artifacts which need to be found early if they are to be worth finding at all.

5. A total of +3 via increased pvals on two cloaks which already had it, and +8 over three separate weapons. Weapons which will be used for a fairly small proportion of the game, won't be found particularly early, and won't make a huge difference even with +2 or +3 speed. One of the cloaks is extremely rare, and the other got one more point (+2 to +3).

6. Here you may have your one and only valid point. Playtesting will tell. The artifacts to which you refer are three Paurs, three 'thancs and two crappy swords - eight artifacts which have consistently been among the least used for a long time. If the changes result in them being used more often, that's a measure of success - but I'm no expert in depth/rarity stuff so it's possible that I have overcompensated and things will have to be tweaked back a bit.

[Pete Mack]

A quick diff shows
1. Amulet changes are too good
2. Too much rNether
3. +2 blows is a dangerous addition
4. Artifact depths should generally be deeper than object native depth
5. Probably too many speed bonuses.
6. Artifacts are going to litter the floor at shallow depths

[jevansau]

Some very interesting changes, which should make the changed artifacts worth consideration - at least for some classes. I don't think the change you made to Gothmog will have the desired effect though, given the negative pval.

[Magnate]

Ok, I've committed a rather more extensive set of tweaks to trunk than I anticipated, so please try the next nightly and let me know what you think. I won't list the changes here in case people would rather find out by playing instead of being spoiled. If you do want to do that, don't read any more replies to this thread, because they're likely to be people saying "but you did THAT!" ...

I did end up removing aggravation on one item, but for all the other aggravators (except Deathwreaker/Doomcaller, which are uber enough already) I found ways of improving them.

Thanks for all the input - I used a lot of suggestions on this thread, and added a few of my own ...

[Magnate]

I am confused. If you think that a flavorful description on an object makes it interesting when you would otherwise prefer it was not generated, why did you start this thread?

That's not quite what Will said:

IMO, an artifact is only junk worth removing if it's something that's supposed to be good (not cursed) that you *always* drop and leave it behind as soon as you find out what it is. It would take that much for me to consider it not worth the flavor.

With a few exceptions like Elvagil, and late-found Paurs and 'thancs, there's a big difference between an artifact that is not uber and one that you leave behind as soon as you find it.

My issue is really the same as yours: I want to make the artifacts better than a random ego. That's not to say that every weapon has to be better than a +4 holy avenger or Gondolin+ESP, but they should be better than most egos. JLE added lots of extra ego types, and in doing so rendered quite a few artifacts less desirable. I'm looking to fix that.

[Rizwan]

Thanks for the thoughts - I agree with you, and I wonder how many others do.

Btw, your first step towards adding a shop is to increment SHOP_FEAT_TAIL. Then of course you have to add owners and stuff in store.txt ...

Or could you add a section to the home inventory labelled as Museum?

[Zikke]

I think their are too many artifacts like there used to be too much junk. I kinda liked in Diablo II where they had one artifact per item type; it was like the uberest version of that item type. Obviously such a system isn't feasible for V, but I still think are too many crap artifacts.

[PowerDiver]

Thanks for the thoughts - I agree with you, and I wonder how many others do.

I am confused. If you think that a flavorful description on an object makes it interesting when you would otherwise prefer it was not generated, why did you start this thread?

[Nick]

Thanks for the thoughts - I agree with you, and I wonder how many others do.

Me too. As well.

[Joona]

I also like finding artifacts. Of course, most of the people remember the whole artifact list by heart but there's always that little excitement when the {special} appears on an item in the early game or you get a special level feeling. I don't like the idea of completely removing some artifacts, though some of the best ones might require some tuning down and some of the weakest could do with slight boosts.

I'd actually like some new artifact rings or amulets that would appear a bit earlier. Maybe some kind of a ring of slaying with resistances and stuff like that. Or an amulet of wisdom with some kind of an activation. Nothing major but something to spice up the adventure.

It seems that many people really hate the aggravation on some items. Agreed, it makes some artifacts quite useless for some classes but I also think that only a penalty to stealth might not be enough. Would it be possible to make an aggravating weapon act like the Shrieker Mushroom Patches at random intervals like the rings and amulets of teleportation do their thing. The interval would be dependent on how good the artifact is.

"Calris starts singing drinking songs, you hear a sudden stirring nearby."

It could also be confusion, poisoning or stat minuses depending on the artifact level. Random confusion might be good for an early powerful artifact but could be ignored with rConf.

Maybe a bit far fetched but I'll bring it up anyway.

[Magnate]

I don't agree. Artifacts, as unique items, have more flavor than egos like free action or slaying. They are interesting to find. The game would be less fun if you find artifacts less often, even if they are a little less useful than the egos you find instead.
For me, the game is not about calculating and optimizing my character. It's about having fun exploring the dungeon, killing monsters, and discovering interesting stuff (new monsters*, vaults, interesting/rare objects or egos, artifacts (even useless ones)).
I'd rather find Cammithrim than gauntlets of free action, agility, or slaying simply because it's more fun to discover a unique item. If I found +5 gauntlets of power in the next room, I'd still keep Cammithrim in my home for awhile even though it's pretty unlikely I'd use it at that point. (I'd add a museum / mathom house to DaJAngband if I could figure out how to add another building in the town.)
IMO, an artifact is only junk worth removing if it's something that's supposed to be good (not cursed) that you *always* drop and leave it behind as soon as you find out what it is. It would take that much for me to consider it not worth the flavor.

*- Discovering monsters is still fun to me even though I created most of DaJAngband's monster list..

Thanks for the thoughts - I agree with you, and I wonder how many others do.

Btw, your first step towards adding a shop is to increment SHOP_FEAT_TAIL. Then of course you have to add owners and stuff in store.txt ...

[konijn_]

*thanc with +2 attacks would do 42 dam/turn. That's pretty amazing for low level casters that won't be getting enough str or dex to get multiple blows for some time. More damage than a +9 longbow even.

Narsil used to be my favorite early weapon because of the +2 attacks, and Sting still is if I can find it.

Well, if any low level caster is tempted to do close combat with the low hit die and con, I would think that's a win.

T.

[azfalt]

agreed on Thranduil - it pops up early and often in my games, and it totally obsoletes a whole bunch of headgear.

[fizzix]

I can only confidently comment on Thranduil, which I find quite commonly (no scumming required) and alway find immensely useful (it's a total game changer). Increased depth and rarity are probably warranted, especially since most other suggested changes will likely make things easier.

I've been playing randart games so I can't really comment much on this thread, but ESP is huge. I usually don't get it in a randart game until fairly late, and then it's usually an amulet of ESP or a helm of telepathy instead of an artifact. Thranduil. Thranduil should probably be kept at the same rarity but moved back to level 40 or 50. Holhenneth should also be moved back, maybe to dlevel 30.

Then maybe slightly reduce the rarity of ESP helms and serenity helms. Those guys are obsoleted by Thranduil or Holhenneth and always seem to show up later, making them junk.

Again, I don't play much with the standart set anymore, so take my advice with many grains of salt.

[buzzkill]

I've always thought that both Thengel (rConfu) and Thranduil (ESP & rBlind) were too good at those depths/rarities.

I can only confidently comment on Thranduil, which I find quite commonly (no scumming required) and alway find immensely useful (it's a total game changer). Increased depth and rarity are probably warranted, especially since most other suggested changes will likely make things easier.