Angband 4.2.3

[archolewa]

In my last win (warrior), I was totally fighting Reavers and Wyrms without worrying too much about consumables.

Standarts or Randarts? I play Standarts, and the only time I can chew through Reavers and Wyrms is when In playing a Blackguard with Deathwreaker or Doomcaller.

[Julian]

Though this definitely hurts every other class really badly. Nobody can really fight Reavers, Greater Balrogs, or Wyrms without using way too many consumables. I think vaults would end up becoming shiny things you ignore.

In my last win (warrior), I was totally fighting Reavers and Wyrms without worrying too much about consumables.

Balrogs were enough of a pain that I didn’t bother.

[archolewa]

The mass banish/banish/cheese tactics, outside of abstaining, my personal opinion still is to put gear items in vaults into random picks of the top mobs in the vault ...

I was going to say this unfairly punishes Rogues, who dont have access to banishment cheese, but still arent tough enough to take on many top mobs. But then I realized this would make the otherwise useless steal xommand, and steal-and-teleport spell worth using...

Though this definitely hurts every other class really badly. Nobody can really fight Reavers, Greater Balrogs, or Wyrms without using way too many consumables. I think vaults would end up becoming shiny things you ignore.

[ewert]

Killing uniques is the main thing I do, so making them rarer sounds like a real annoying idea to me.

I agree that tunnelers are a bit too common. Why would balrogs tunnel, that one I don't get at all. Umber hulks, storm of unmagic, sure, balrogs? Why?

Because tunnelers break tactics so badly, it is a bit masochistic to fight them, I still often do it because I like fighting not being a janitor. I do feel though that because of tunneler problem, graveyards go from risky/leechy/drainy fights to okay bye I am outta here once black reavers are mixed in.

The mass banish/banish/cheese tactics, outside of abstaining, my personal opinion still is to put gear items in vaults into random picks of the top mobs in the vault ...

[mrfy]

I'm noticing that every time I fire an arrow, I get the message: "You combine some items in your pack.". This is with multiple bundles of regular arrows (+0,+0) loaded in the quivers.

Looks like it is correctly firing from quiver #0, and then replacing that arrow with one from another quiver to keep the number loaded at 40. But it probably doesn't need to announce the message every time.

Perhaps it has been like this for a while, but seems like an annoying bug.

Playing the latest nightly.

[AceRimmer]

Alternatively, place Morgoth on dlvl 75.

Ooooh, I like this. Well, actually, what I'm thinking is: why shouldn't monsters have a small but non-negligible chance of summoning Morgoth? Who's to say he never ventures out of the dungeon depths just to see how things are going on the upper levels? Keeping the underling in line? Okay, so it would probably ruin the game-play, but he would be the ultimate out-of-depth monster summon.

[mrfy]

ad 1: Those two are the main offenders; uniques could be less frequent and hounds of Tindalos are also in the "destruct or leave level" category. Nether worms turn vaults into simple pits. I dont know if it would solve, but it would go a long way.

I don't want uniques to be less frequent, I want to find them all and kill them.

Agree about hounds (Tindalos, Time, Aether, etc), they are annoying and sometimes are not worth dealing with. Nether worms I never find to be a problem. Black reavers though...

Plus, I agree with someone's suggestion that high-level dragons (Sky, Great Wyrm of Balance, Many Colours) should be made rarer, and perhaps live natively below level 100.

Generally speaking, you could do interesting things on a level; now, everything thats left is destruct or banish.

Disagree. But perhaps my play style is different than yours. I like to kill monsters and take their treasure rather than relying on stealth.

[Nick]

ad 1: Those two are the main offenders; uniques could be less frequent and hounds of Tindalos are also in the "destruct or leave level" category. Nether worms turn vaults into simple pits. I dont know if it would solve, but it would go a long way.

OK, I'll start there.

ad 3: Teleport (other and self) doesnt get rid of most things. Sometimes, a dangerous but dumb monster would be visible through ESP, but blocked by geometry. You could deal with lesser threats while keeping tabs on the dangerous one, aware that phasing was not an option.

I'll have a think about what's possible and plausible here. I think the main issue is that monster hearing now is pretty much a "find the shortest path to the player" algorithm, and what we probably want is something extra in there that the player can exploit sometimes. Perhaps if a monster is close by direct distance but further by path distance they will have trouble finding the path (which would look like your "by geometry").

To preserve the risk/reward status of vaults, you could make great weapons, the high dragon armors, rings of speed, the top artifacts as well as the super monsters like sky dragons all native to depths > 100. Storywise, it can be justified - the book is full of hints of things that are older, dangerous in their own right and that dont care about Sauron.

Alernatively, place Morgoth on dlvl 75.

Let's keep that up our sleeve and see how other things work first

[Voovus]

it also had passages where the tension came from the darkness, the fear of the unknown, the decision which path to take.

For that kind of suspense you might like to dig out Rogue.

[Estie]

OK, I'm listening, and I have a few questions:

1. Which monsters are the main problem? Would it be solved by, for example, taking away tunneling from balrogs and making storms of unmagic rarer?
2. Which classes are giving you the worst experience, and is there a noticeable difference?
3. What gameplay difference are you seeing from better pathfinding?
4. Is part of the problem too many vaults/pits/special rooms?

It's also worth saying that one of my aims was to make the increase in danger more steady as you descend, to get away from the old "get through statgain, and then dive to speed ring depth" technique that had arisen because there were few new monsters below level 50. One of the consequences of this is that DL98 should now be noticeably more dangerous than DL70.

ad 1: Those two are the main offenders; uniques could be less frequent and hounds of Tindalos are also in the "destruct or leave level" category. Nether worms turn vaults into simple pits. I dont know if it would solve, but it would go a long way.

ad 2: Its the same for all classes.

ad 3: Teleport (other and self) doesnt get rid of most things. Sometimes, a dangerous but dumb monster would be visible through ESP, but blocked by geometry. You could deal with lesser threats while keeping tabs on the dangerous one, aware that phasing was not an option.

Generally speaking, you could do interesting things on a level; now, everything thats left is destruct or banish.

ad 4: I am not sure. The thing is that I want to spend most of my time on vault levels, so if you make them rare, I just keep searching longer (as it used to be).

On dlvl 60 a great vault is a terribly dangerous, but potentially lucrative feature. On 98, it becomes a lucrative safety feature thanks to perma walls.

To preserve the risk/reward status of vaults, you could make great weapons, the high dragon armors, rings of speed, the top artifacts as well as the super monsters like sky dragons all native to depths > 100. Storywise, it can be justified - the book is full of hints of things that are older, dangerous in their own right and that dont care about Sauron.

Alernatively, place Morgoth on dlvl 75.

[Nick]

I have to agree with Sky here - I dont like the late game either. The beefed up new monsters are fine, but the density is not. Everything either boring through walls or having supreme pathfinding means @ is forced into tactical combat the moment he sets foot on the level. While this increases the danger, it also makes the dungeon small. It feels like I am entering a big weird-shaped room and it removes a strategic level of the game - decisions where to explore, what to avoid.

OK, I'm listening, and I have a few questions:

1. Which monsters are the main problem? Would it be solved by, for example, taking away tunneling from balrogs and making storms of unmagic rarer?
2. Which classes are giving you the worst experience, and is there a noticeable difference?
3. What gameplay difference are you seeing from better pathfinding?
4. Is part of the problem too many vaults/pits/special rooms?

It's also worth saying that one of my aims was to make the increase in danger more steady as you descend, to get away from the old "get through statgain, and then dive to speed ring depth" technique that had arisen because there were few new monsters below level 50. One of the consequences of this is that DL98 should now be noticeably more dangerous than DL70.

[Estie]

I have to agree with Sky here - I dont like the late game either. The beefed up new monsters are fine, but the density is not. Everything either boring through walls or having supreme pathfinding means @ is forced into tactical combat the moment he sets foot on the level. While this increases the danger, it also makes the dungeon small. It feels like I am entering a big weird-shaped room and it removes a strategic level of the game - decisions where to explore, what to avoid.

I want Angband to reproduce the feeling of Moria in the book. And that was not an action flick racing from one combat encounter to the next, it also had passages where the tension came from the darkness, the fear of the unknown, the decision which path to take.

I understand why Nick has done all this, but there are other ways to increase game difficulty. Lowering @ hitpoints for example. While that means more chances for instant death, I very much prefer it over the overblown mess that we have now.

I played tome2 for a long time, but returned to vanilla when I got sick of the monty haul game. I have a similar feeling again - having played the extreme new vanilla, I find myself yearning for a more basic game. Thats what vanilla should be, in my humble opinion. The new vanilla is like an extreme variant.

Nick - I am sorry for making this post. I love most of the things you have done, but the changes to monsters and pathfinding break it for me.

[Pete Mack]

Can necromancers eat Lembas? (It is poisonous to orcs, and Gollum refused it.)

[Ingwe Ingweron]

The new Random birth functions (*) or (@) in the nightlies for 4.2.3 are very cool!

[sffp]

Started a rogue now after Kavlax took out my promising human warrior (note to self - do not angband during work calls regardless of how boring)

I'm noticing that I can't use p to start my magic (previous versions had p and m as interchangable...)