[Announce] FrogComposband 7.1.toffee released

[MITZE]

(To be clear, I'm not saying "always small levels" would be an easy-mode. I have no idea whether it would or would not be an easy-mode, and at this point neither does anybody else because the answer would depend on how it's implemented and what other options would go with it.)

Obviously I haven't used it recently, but I did use it frequently in games up to and including the you-know-what; in my experience, it did not make the game easier at all, and in fact made it harder—I remember getting an Angband quest for elder storm giants (dump doesn't say how many, but I think it was somewhere from like 12-20 at DL50), where detection covered 3/4 of the level . . . I had to -TeleOther them like mad at first.

[Sideways]

Regarding wanting to be able to use the ladder to compare runs: this is a fair concern. Ideally you'd be able to filter the ladder based on options set, so you could compare your no-artifacts ironman unusual-rooms win as a shadow-elf high mage against other similar runs. Of course, even if you could do that, as noted above the specifics of how each run goes makes them much harder to compare. I'm not convinced that the value-add of more-comparable runs on the ladder is worth missing out on a popular option.

Comparability of runs on the ladder is something I view as a good thing, but it's not going to be a sticking point that prevents an option from being re-added. There are plenty of end-runs around that problem already: coffee runs are prominently marked as coffee in the version tag ("7.1.toffee (coffee)"), so everyone can see at a glance that they're coffee; easy_damage runs have special scoring; munchkin "wins" simply don't count as a win at all.

What I'm more concerned about is new players who aren't that familiar with the Angband community and probably don't even submit their characters to the oook ladder. There are people playing FrogComposband who have minimal previous experience with Composband, PosChengband or even Angband. I want them to be able to enjoy their first wins fully without lingering doubts that they only won because they turned every possible easy-mode on.

(To be clear, I'm not saying "always small levels" would be an easy-mode. I have no idea whether it would or would not be an easy-mode, and at this point neither does anybody else because the answer would depend on how it's implemented and what other options would go with it.)

[Derakon]

These options are extremely popular...you are making the exact same mistake that Chris made
You are also making another mistake
... Chris didn't see it, and you aren't seeing it either...

Dude. Chill. Cut out the ad hominem attacks. It's fine to feel strongly about a game, and to argue passionately for or against a change, but you can feel strongly without attacking the maintainers. Neither chris nor Sideways deserves to be treated the way you're treating them.

To get back to the topic at hand, though.

Regarding wanting the player to feel like they've accomplished a legitimate victory: the game is hard, but it is not equally hard for all setups. There's no comparison between a mismatched/weak race/class combo and a powerful one, right? Even two games with the exact same settings can be more or less difficult depending on the specifics of what happens in-game. Whether you readily find useful artifacts or have to claw and scrape for every minute improvement makes a big difference in how hard a victory was. I think players understand that, so they'll also understand that a win with unusual-rooms on is qualitatively different from a win with it off.

Regarding wanting to be able to use the ladder to compare runs: this is a fair concern. Ideally you'd be able to filter the ladder based on options set, so you could compare your no-artifacts ironman unusual-rooms win as a shadow-elf high mage against other similar runs. Of course, even if you could do that, as noted above the specifics of how each run goes makes them much harder to compare. I'm not convinced that the value-add of more-comparable runs on the ladder is worth missing out on a popular option.

[Sideways]

It would be logically sound for you to assert "Nup, I don't like it, not in my game", or "Too much hassle"; no player believes that Frog is significantly different to Pos

But neither of those assertions would (currently) be true. I may well decide, later, that I don't like it or that it's too much hassle; both of those are entirely possible future outcomes. But I haven't come to either of those conclusions yet.

I don't know, man, reading back over the months through the ladder posts and forum threads on Pos, I've gotten the feeling that Pos is sometimes even radically different from itself. Let alone a fork of it. :-)

You've hit the nail on the head. I know pretty well how different Frog is from Pos; I maintain the thing. But it's not just about the differences between Frog and Pos, but also the differences between different versions of Pos, and one of the most important differences to come into play here is a Pos vs. Pos one.

At one point, Chris changed monster density on small levels. When people say they want always_small_levels back, do they also want the old monster density back, or do they actually prefer the new monster density, or is the density something that doesn't matter at all, or something that individual always_small_levels players have different opinions about? And if I gave them the option of increasing monster density on small levels, would that option be something they'd still like to have when they were playing with always_small_levels off? Would they maybe even want higher monster density on big levels?

Another big thing (which is Pos vs. Frog): what kind of level do always_small_levels folks think of as "small"? The code for determining the size of a small level has changed, and deep dungeon Angband generates "small" levels that are actually pretty big. Do the always_small_levels players accept those levels as small, or do they want their small levels smaller than that? Do they want the same size of small levels regardless of depth, or do they want tiny levels in the early game and bigger small levels in the late game?

I don't know. That's why I need people's input. Seeking people's input is the opposite of stifling discussion.

[Bostock]

I don't know, man, reading back over the months through the ladder posts and forum threads on Pos, I've gotten the feeling that Pos is sometimes even radically different from itself. Let alone a fork of it. :-)

[Mocht]

... the new, different context ... the context is new and different

It would be logically sound for you to assert "Nup, I don't like it, not in my game", or "Too much hassle"; no player believes that Frog is significantly different to Pos

[Nick]

If I repeat that Composband is not FrogComposband often enough people may eventually take it on board.

You have much to learn about humanity

[Sideways]

If you don't understand why those options are popular then that shows a worrying distance between you and your players

If I don't understand why an option was popular I will seek to understand why it is that the option was popular, so that if the option ever is re-introduced I can make sure that the characteristics that once made it popular can be retained in the new, different context, which simply porting the old code would not necessarily achieve because the context is new and different. I'm not sure why you find this objectionable.

[Gwarl]

Mocht: how is that different from any other project? As it happens, i understand both your points. The bottom line: if you want this option, it needs a different name--say Composband--quick mode. That name needs to be in the title, not just in the options, because it screws up the ladder, and as sideways said, it is a completely different game. Yes, it could be done as a fork, but also with ingame mechanics. The trouble is, it adds more work that *someone has to be willing to do and maintain.* This is why sideways mentions the fork: he alone can't afford to put in the time. If you want to do it, and it proves popular, it can be folded back in. That is why github exists, more or less.

If I repeat that Composband is not FrogComposband often enough people may eventually take it on board.

[Mocht]

Mocht: how is that different from any other project?

If you are a client and you pay for something then the person who made it might listen to you
But with respect to free software, developers will not enter into any discussions

[Mocht]

If I want to make those options play the way they did then, I'll have to make further modifications - and know what it is that people liked about the way those options played then

If you don't understand why those options are popular then that shows a worrying distance between you and your players

[Pete Mack]

Mocht: how is that different from any other project? As it happens, i understand both your points. The bottom line: if you want this option, it needs a different name--say Composband--quick mode. That name needs to be in the title, not just in the options, because it screws up the ladder, and as sideways said, it is a completely different game. Yes, it could be done as a fork, but also with ingame mechanics. The trouble is, it adds more work that *someone has to be willing to do and maintain.* This is why sideways mentions the fork: he alone can't afford to put in the time. If you want to do it, and it proves popular, it can be folded back in. That is why github exists, more or less.

[Mocht]

People are welcome to fork FrogComposband and create their own variants if they feel they can do a better job than me

This is open source software's biggest weakness, the biggest thing holding it back: if you disagree with developers about anything then there is no discussion, they simply say "If you have a problem then fork me"

[Sideways]

People are welcome to fork FrogComposband and create their own variants if they feel they can do a better job than me

Usually, though, I end up erring on the side of adding popularly requested options even if I don't agree with them personally; like the easy_damage option; people had to yell at me and get emotional at me a lot before I added it, but I did add it. FrogComposband is a big tent variant and its players don't have to agree with my personal views on everything. That's why options exist.

But there are a few things that I'm particularly reluctant to add. The first is any option (or any other modification) that makes the game radically easier. When people win, they need to feel like a winner and know they beat the game legitimately, and not because they turned on some option that essentially amounts to cheat-mode. The other is monsters, game mechanics etc. (but not necessarily options - options are the player's own choice, they know what they're getting into) that increase the chance of unfair deaths the player could do nothing about (and monsters of this type could also fall into the first category if they got mimicked or possessed...)

I'm fully embracing the bat-shit craziness of the PosChengband lineage, but I will readily admit I'm not embracing its unbalancedness. There is space in the options, certainly, for things that change the balance, even dramatically; but if you want a complete lack of it, try Composband

--

And like I said, it's a different game now. If I just straight-up ported the old code for those options, they wouldn't play the same way anymore. If I want to make those options play the way they did then, I'll have to make further modifications - and know what it is that people liked about the way those options played then.

[Mocht]

And that kind of thing is why I'm wary of adding options like this without extensive vetting

These options are extremely popular and you want people to justify to you why they should be restored, you are making the exact same mistake that Chris made
You are also making another mistake
Towards the end of Chris's reign, Clouded wrote that the changes were inconsistent with the spirit of Poschengband, Chris didn't see it, and you aren't seeing it either
This lineage of games is supposed to be as big, wild and varied as possible, the term bat-shit crazy was used for Poschgengband, a term Chris took offence to
Having unbalanced options that completely change the gameplay suits the lineage perfectly