"Nick is going to butcher the game"

[Derakon]

You can cherry-pick examples of popular games that have never changed. I can cherry-pick examples of popular games that have changed (for example, Street Fighter, Super Mario Bros, or the rise of Texas Holdem in poker). Does that make either of us right? Of course not. And yes, people do still play the old versions of Street Fighter / SMB, and Texas Holdem hasn't completely displaced, say, five-card draw or seven-card stud. Whether to change or remain basically static is a decision that has to get made on a case-by-case basis. There's no global rule on these things.

Incidentally, Nick has made it massively easier to find and play old versions of Angband, by building up the archive of pretty much every version ever. That's not the kind of action taken by someone with no respect for the past.

[olivertheorem]

I have been following this conversation with great interest. I have been playing Moria and then Angband off and on for something like 20 years. I have at times gone several years without playing (due to other time constraints or interests), and when I come back, yes sometimes many things have changed about the game. But, even then, I can instantly recognize it as Angband. Were I currently not playing and reading this forum, and I picked up the official release with Nick's current changes, I'd see it as Angband. A new, different Angband certainly, but still recognizably Angband. Would I like it or not? I don't know, as I haven't played the dev versions much, but whether I like it or not really isn't the issue. That it would still be recognizable as Angband is.

Yes, Nick is changing quite a bit, and yes some of them have been in place for quite a while in Angband. I empathize with those who don't want certain aspects of the game that they personally quite enjoy as is to be changed. Yet, most every reference I have seen in this thread and other various threads boils down to some variation of "I think X is perfect and/or too entrenched to change, therefore it should be left alone." The problem with this argument is that, when it comes to things like games, personal opinion on such things will vary wildly (see the previous 12+ pages of this thread for exhibit A) and no single opinion overrides any other....aside from the maintainer. Yet, Nick has done his best to make sure the community has a say, which is to his credit. To cite the theoretical opinions of those not on this forum, though, is disingenuous. It is not as if Nick could poll all those players, so in this regard their collective opinion is irrelevant to the discussion as it is unknowable. Nick is doing the best he can with the resources available to him, and I am thankful for his efforts to try to make this old-school game we all love to be better than its ever been.

I will say, though, that when someone posts about not liking Nick's direction, the reflex response tends towards "well then don't upgrade when it reaches full release," which is a valid point but doesn't help the situation necessarily. I personally find Nick's responses to such posts (well, the reasonable ones, anyway) to be among the most interesting ones he makes, just because it gives him reason to explain his thoughts and direction more clearly. I would encourage those who have reservations about Nick's direction to say so, but to do so with well reasoned arguments and explanations (not, "I like this as it is so don't change it", that doesn't count). And, to those same people, even if your arguments have no ultimate effect on the direction Angband takes, I encourage you to try it once it hits full release. Who knows, you may just be surprised at how much you like it.

Just my....um.....25 cents?

[wobbly]

or consider chess,,, theres 4 way chess on some site but thats really not chess

Exactly chess still has the same old elephants & chariots...
You know it's actually not that long ago that pawns couldn't move 2 squares on their 1st move. Not in terms of how old the game is anyway.

More relevantly I can think of another game that didn't change (up until recently) & that is Nethack. This is understandable as Nethack is perfect in every way & contains no design flaws, but I still feel like this may of not been the best move for the game. Plenty of people ended up losing interest.

[dos350]

please dont get the wrong idea

i respect nick and all the devs, and i am very thankful for their work in maintaining this amazing game,

i just want to express these concerns, please try to understand my perspective,

im not against all changes whatsoever, i just want to demonstrate that there is a point of no return

[wobbly]

And I meant no offence despite my snarkiness. Thing is there are people who don't want to see the game they love "butchered" by changes but there are also people who don't want to see the game locked in some sort of permanent stasis because the game has become this sacred cow where changing anything is killing the game or ruining it.

At the end of the day changing something is going to annoy someone & from experience it can be the slightest thing such as removing haggling or gorged status or all sorts of things. But I can tell you seeing a whole bunch of things that could be improved stay static because "how dare someone change {foo}…" is also annoying to a lot of us.

[Youssarian]

I would like to say that the level of communication and discussion about changes is pretty great and there is clearly only good intentions for Angband being done in its continued development.

It's also clear the community that enjoys this game (and those like it) truly love and appreciate it - even when we might be a little less tactful about it then necessary. A shout out goes to all the effort people make to keep a game that is still relevant today that otherwise would have just been a footnote in computer history.

I also believe that should any change occur that the community does truly dislike would be changed back almost instantly by Nick. Maybe something could be different here and there, but that is always the way of change.

I've thrown in my thoughts previously on the current changes and won't rehash them, but I think as a whole, Nick and this community all have the best interests of Angband at heart.

[dos350]

imagine logging into diablo 2 and half the classes had name change and many skills removed and or completely changed, monsters had name and ability changes and generally started being in the star wars universe instead of diablo, despite many dedicated players learning, enjoying and talking about it for the last 20 years, its all invalidated!

now thats not diablo2 its a mod

[debo]

imagine logging into diablo 2 and half the classes had name change and many skills removed and or completely changed, monsters had name and ability changes and generally started being in the star wars universe instead of diablo, despite many dedicated players learning, enjoying and talking about it for the last 20 years, its all invalidated!

now thats not diablo2 its a mod

Yes, I agree that could be a problem! However, it's a pretty terrible analogy for what is happening here. And this is coming from someone who would be super stoked to see Angband go sci-fantasy (greater chance of rockets.)

[debo]

I think an important variable in this problem is the size of the "Angband community." It's pretty darn small. Even if we irritate half the community with a change that's, what? Maybe 30 people? That falls pretty firmly under "who cares" territory for me.

Nick, hurry up and get these changes into master. I haven't wanted to play V in forever, and now I'm curious.

[Nick]

Nick, hurry up and get these changes into master. I haven't wanted to play V in forever, and now I'm curious.

They're in master already. Get 'em while they're hot.

[takkaria]

I think an important variable in this problem is the size of the "Angband community." It's pretty darn small. Even if we irritate half the community with a change that's, what? Maybe 30 people? That falls pretty firmly under "who cares" territory for me.

Some 300 people download the game each month.

[kandrc]

Some 300 people download the game each month.

271 of those are debo.

[dos350]

over the last 20years that 300 a month added lot, not to mention people who shared the game offline,

[olivertheorem]

imagine logging into diablo 2 and half the classes had name change and many skills removed and or completely changed, monsters had name and ability changes and generally started being in the star wars universe instead of diablo, despite many dedicated players learning, enjoying and talking about it for the last 20 years, its all invalidated!

now thats not diablo2 its a mod

This analogy only works if the changes to Angband were being made without notice to the community, and if you had no choice but to update the version (like it happened in the background or something). In Angband, Nick is being as upfront as humanly possible about what is coming, and you do have the choice not to download the new version. The comparison you're trying to make just isn't there.

Again, I empathize with those who think Angband is largely fine just where it is. That is a valid opinion. But you're not going to convince people to change their mind with over the top analogies such as this.

[debo]

Some 300 people download the game each month.

That's more than I thought! Neat stat.

However, when I said 'community,' I meant the number of people who regularly and actively play the game and like, talk about it.