"Nick is going to butcher the game"

[takkaria]

That's more than I thought! Neat stat.

However, when I said 'community,' I meant the number of people who regularly and actively play the game and like, talk about it.

Sure. I just thought it was an interesting data point. It was as high as 700 a month last year for a few months. Used to be higher.

The forum software reckons there are 207 active members here too, even if a lot of them don't post.

[dos350]

ever had a product u used to like, say a biscuit or soda, item on menu at resteraunt, anything u can think of really~ change ~ now u dont like that product, even tho its called the same thing by the same company (new & improved), u have to find something else to fill the void of what once was,

whatever reason it may hav changed for doesnt matter to the upset ex user

[Mondkalb]

ever had a product u used to like, say a biscuit or soda, item on menu at resteraunt, anything u can think of really~ change ~ now u dont like that product, even tho its called the same thing by the same company (new & improved), u have to find something else to fill the void of what once was,

whatever reason it may hav changed for doesnt matter to the upset ex user

Yeah, but the difference is, you can still download and play the version of Angband you like, whereas you usually can't buy the good old times product anymore.

[dos350]

would u want ur good friend to die just so he never changed?

[mrfy]

would u want ur good friend to die just so he never changed?

No, I accept that change is going to happen because that's life. Some people change in good ways, other in bad ways. If the change is too bad, then cut off contact and remember when they were a good friend, with a bit of sadness of course.

[GeoffHill]

Well, at least after all this time, the fact that people still want to argue about all of this means something is both right and important about the game itself. I am not sure that will be lost if it evolves further.

I remember writing this post (1993) when it was released :

https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=rec.games.moria/Dl7J9mEBDWg/utwKyG387l4J

(which sounds a bit dated now)

As you will see from this a lot of this was being made up as we went along, so if years of play and feedback mean that it is time for an overhaul then I am in favour.

Perhaps, however, it might be wise to introduce this in stages to see what the consensus is.

Cheers,

Geoff Hill (yes, that one)

[Nick]

I remember writing this post (1993) when it was released :

https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=rec.games.moria/Dl7J9mEBDWg/utwKyG387l4J

(which sounds a bit dated now)

Thanks Geoff, that was a great read. Really captures the excitement of the new game

[Carnivean]

would u want ur good friend to die just so he never changed?

Would you cryo-freeze your good friend so that they never changed?

[tangar]

Cryo-freeze is bad. But it's not the case which we got in Angband right now:

Gameplay mechanics should evolve. Lore should stay the same. D&D monsters/races are part of Angband lore and history. They are part of the game world.

Recently there was a post on reddit, wanna quote my tiny reply there:

There is big difference between 'gameplay' and 'lore' changes. Gameplay changes could make game better, rebalancing the game, implementing new interesting gameplay mechanics.

But the thing in current Angband changes is: lore 'sweeping'. Maintainer decided to remove DnD influence from Angband's lore, making it closer to pure-Tolkien - without kobolds, dark elves, Medusa etc. For 30 years it was mixed universe, people get used to it and they love it. No one asked to make such changes - it's not balance/gameplay, but lore changes.

As Xainiax said in reddit topic:

Lore is almost impossible to change in any fictional setting, people like what they know about a world to continue to be true.

Yes! It is. And situation in Angband is exactly about changing fictional setting. It's like rewriting storyline in your favorite book.

Why not just create Angband 2? Leave vanilla as it is and create 'new' game, with new lore. Because after this major lore changes it looks like a new game to me. Like Moria vs Angband.

[Thraalbee]

I have tested a lot with different classes. It still feels like Angband to me. Also finally more difficult without silly nerfs. Sure, I cant see how Etten is an improvement from Ettin and I miss the dark elves. But I like the new dwarves and trees ... and in general think this is making Angband more interesting. And there will be tweaks and changes, ie better before released
So I'm back playing this again rather than FrogComPosband

[wobbly]

Interesting read, particullary as I play some of those roguelikes. While I've never played CDDA I've certainly read the drama around it elsewhere. It gets a little, ah... heated.. to put it mildly.

I too have played the new version and it also still looks like V to me, complete with action packed worm mass battles, snoozy snakes, plate mail clad kobolds (these somehow escaped the butcher's foul clutches). Perhaps Nick should of saved himself some drama and posted a list of monsters that didn't change? I don't miss drow which for me were ..bzzt.. light wand. I feel the dwarfs have more flavour. I liked gnome mages (butc.....) but hey not to the extent of being upset about the name change.

I also like trees. Who doesn't?

I am the lore!

[Gwarl]

Why not just create Angband 2? Leave vanilla as it is and create 'new' game, with new lore. Because after this major lore changes it looks like a new game to me. Like Moria vs Angband.

We're already on Angband 4

[tangar]

It's version number, nothing more. So it's still Angband (I) aka 'Vanilla', there is no Angband II or III or IV (yet).

So if Nick wanna purge D&D influence and change Angband to pure-Tolkien game (which means complete overhauling of Angband _lore_) - maybe new game should be Angband II?

Or different approach - a lot of people like to play FAAngband ( First Age Angband ), made by Nick and pure-Tolkien. Current Angband purging from DnD and having Tolkien-focus makes vanilla something like Second(Third?) Age Angband.

Maybe Nick should just clean _all_ DnD influence and make pure-Tolkien Angband (variant), call it Angband II or ...AAngband? So Vanilla would stay Vanilla, with DnD stuff, as it was for 30 years. Just a rhetorical question...

[Derakon]

Who's going to maintain "Angband I" under your proposal? More importantly, what's stopping them from stepping up and saying "I'm branching Vanilla at 4.1, anyone who wants to keep the old monsters and classes can play my game instead"? Hell, they can also call it "Angband" and force us to use descriptors like "Nick's Angband" and "Hypothetical Alternative Maintainer's Angband" if they want. Moreover, they can do that at any time.

[Sideways]

Angband 2-3-4 aren't just version numbers; the change from Angband 2.9.3 to Angband 3.0.0 was at least as big as what Nick is doing... and introduced much of the D&D-themed content in the first place.