"Nick is going to butcher the game"

[PowerWyrm]

+1 for being able to install Linux when playing Angband

[Adam]

tangar is not abusing anyone, how could u seriously talk about banning him make no sense

I don't know about other people, I lost interest in what he (she?) is saying a month ago. I know we are different but for me the 'I suppose most of the V-players would support anything what Nick's doing, like lemmings.. and if he would say "Jump from the cliff, fools!".. they would jump' message part was the point after which I couldn't take him seriously.
He is saying he is too old to learn new stuff but still behaves like a 5 years old child in my opinion. What he thinks is the truth and anyone not agreeing with him is idiot ('The goal of this discussion is to show that there are people who cares about Vanilla and it's lore and to spread the truth').
I think Nick was patient enough with him.

[Sideways]

Closing threads sends a clear message that the discussion is over, and that any attempt to restart it in another thread would be viewed rather dimly. If the consensus is that this thread is now completely bereft of merit (or even that whatever merit it has is grossly outweighed by its costs, in terms of damage to the community), then it should be closed. I would certainly support closing it. That said, I'm not a moderator, I don't want to be a moderator, pretty much exactly because of this kind of situation. I'd absolutely understand if you didn't want to take that step.

tangar, you should consider this mission completed, one way or another, so please stop trying to convince anyone. Those that disagree with you are not going to change their minds. All you can accomplish at this point is damaging your social standing.

I would definitely support closing the thread. It has outlived its usefulness (if it ever had any), and closing it would be a more genteel move than banning tangar outright.

[Nick]

+1 for being able to install Linux when playing Angband

I kid you not, at one point I had a plan to make a Linux distro (sort of - SUSE had a thing called Studio where you could kind of set up your own distro using their packages) optimised for Angband. Luckily someone suggested at about that time that I should be V maintainer, and Angband Linux was stillborn, unmourned.

Sorry, I just had to respond there. Maybe I'll close the thread tomorrow.

[GeoffHill]

Back when Angband gained its lore (see my post somewhere above) there was indeed some inherent problems with d and d lore Vs Tolkien lore. Being a Tolkien nerd I kept quiet and let people leave a lot of things in that they found fun. Also a lot of items came from the ICE middle earth books so are Tolkien but not canon. Given the haphazard way that these things were included I see no reason not to tidy them up and make it thematic. It seems sensible to rename odd creatures but keep the game mechanics. For example player races can keep the idea but renamed.

[Rydel]

Before Nick closes the ticket, I thought I'd pop in. Although I don't agree with the position, I feel like a large part of problem with Tangar 's position is that it was poorly argued and thought I might take a crack at it.

I would like to speak of resonance.
One of the advantage of some of the more DnD and mythology based monsters is that when a new player sees them, they instantly know what it is that they are encountering. Anyone who has played Dungeons and Dragons, Everquest, Elder Scrolls, or Warhammer, or who is familiar with Norse mythology is likely to have a good grasp of what they are looking at when they see a creature named "Dark Elf Archer", even if the dark elf in question doesn't quite mesh with the Tolkien dark elves. You can't expect the same level of built-in knowledge with some of the more obscure bits of the legendarium - many players aren't going to know who the Stonefoots or the Blacklocks are.
The monsters from Greek mythology have a similar built-in understanding. Through cultural osmosis, most players will have some idea of who Medusa is and what she is capable of, even if they aren't familiar with the story of Perseus.

By avoiding these cultural touchstones, less experienced players will have a harder time pulling these creatures in to the theater of the mind, reducing immersion.

[Sideways]

I would like to speak of resonance.
One of the advantage of some of the more DnD and mythology based monsters is that when a new player sees them, they instantly know what it is that they are encountering. Anyone who has played Dungeons and Dragons, Everquest, Elder Scrolls, or Warhammer, or who is familiar with Norse mythology is likely to have a good grasp of what they are looking at when they see a creature named "Dark Elf Archer", even if the dark elf in question doesn't quite mesh with the Tolkien dark elves.

There's a theory, though, that the dark elves (and/or black elves) of Norse mythology are really just another name for dwarves...

[wobbly]

Not being much of a lore buff I don't know much about stonefoots and blacklocks but I do know what a dwarf looks like and I read the descriptions if I see something new.

I'm not convinced generics are that great for immersion. Ogres, dark elfs, snakes... all these things are very bland. The humble yeek with no mythological connection is much more colourful.

Kitchen-sink done well tends to be much more zany. Your not just fighting ogres (snore) and giant snakes (zzz...). Your fighting Grendel and Tonbery Ninjas and Ruskullas. Generics are fine at being generic but I don't think they do wonders for pulling a person in. I could pull a whole bunch of quotes from other rogue-like sites talking about the blandness of Vanilla Angband.

I think theme done well is imersive and kitchen sink done with enough zaniness is immersive. I don't think bland generics do a whole heap of good. Not for me anyway, others I'm sure have different tastes.

[Philip]

Not sure what the value of having Medusa be Medusa is for people knowing what she's capable of, given that "gaze to paralyze" is an ability that monsters start having literally at lvl 1? Ranged paralysis starts at level 7 or so, and moving monsters who hit to paralyze start at lvl 15. I don't think anyone has idea of what Medusa should do beyond that.

I do love a lot of Angband's native fauna that isn't explicitly Tolkienian. I actually view it as one of the strongest lore elements of the game. But that refers to yeeks, quylthulgs, and zephyr hounds, not random garbage you could find in every other game (I am counting most of the animals between dlvls 1 and 10 into this, a lot of them are or were quite boring).
I think two things are important for monsters: that they create interesting tactical and strategic situations, and that they are internally consistent. The existence of dark elves is mutually inconsistent with the predominant Tolkien theme of the game, and the presence of Eol and Maeglin. The presence of yeeks and quylthulgs and zephyr hounds is not inconsistent with anything, which is why there's nothing wrong with them staying.

[olivertheorem]

Angband is not a game with specific content. It is rather a game with specific intent.

The intent of the game is not changing, even if the content of the game evolves.

I was going to say something along these lines a couple days ago, but Pahasusi put it much more succinctly than I would have.

[tangar]

Angband is not a game with specific content. It is rather a game with specific intent.

Different people have different opinions. If you, personally, do not bother about 'content' (and 'lore') - it's your right. But there are people who actually cares about it and love it.

So if you (and others) do not care about 'the names' - why then change game's fiction which was there for 30 years? If you do not care - do not touch stuff which other people care about!

The intent of the game is not changing, even if the content of the game evolves.

'Evolve'? Evolving - it's to add more famous and fun monsters from DnD universe, the most popular and interesting fantasy bestiary atm. But now it's vice verse - cutting off and purging DnD influence from Angband. It's not evolving, but transforming one game (Vanilla Angband) to another (Tolkien's Angband).

[takkaria]

'Evolve'? Evolving - it's to add more famous and fun monsters from DnD universe, the most popular and interesting fantasy bestiary atm.

I find it hard to believe that you make this suggestion with a straight face. The most popular - by what measure? Famous - maybe in that everyone has heard of Dungeons and Dragons - but not the actual details of the bestiary, which tends towards being quite generic as has been pointed out above.

But now it's vice verse - cutting off and purging DnD influence from Angband. It's not evolving, but transforming one game (Vanilla Angband) to another (Tolkien's Angband).

It's transforming Angband 4.2 into Angband 4.3 (or 5). By a similar token, previous transformations have been from Vanilla Angband (3.1.2v2) to Easy Angband (3.2), and, depending who you ask, either A. from Boring Dungeon Angband (3.4) to Vanilla Angband (3.5) or B. from Vanilla Angband (3.4) to Too-Many-Special-Rooms-Angband (3.5). Of course, all of them were Angband, and all of them remain Angband. Just as Nick's Angband is the same as takkaria's Angband while also being different, so was Geoff Hill's Angband different to (and the same as) Ben Harrison's Angband.

Since yours is a point about the metaphysics of identity, you might benefit from grappling a bit with the ship of Theseus.

[sandtrap]

regular player irregular poster here

Sure. I just thought it was an interesting data point. It was as high as 700 a month last year for a few months. Used to be higher.

The forum software reckons there are 207 active members here too, even if a lot of them don't post.

Lurker here I be. Learning much is to be had by all through lurking.

[Youssarian]

The Republican party of 1860 holds almost the opposite positions it does today. Is it not still the Republican party?

We used to call people doctors that used leeches and other horrible methods to cure your illness. Now they use modern medicine. Are they still doctors today or are they something else? Would we even call people who had that title doctors, now?

Angband is not the same as it was when it was first made (thank you for creating this wonderful thing!). Do we not all accept it as Angband?

Angband originally had no tiles. Yet now people play with a selection of different tilesets. Do we not still think our game is Angband even though my home isn't number 8 anymore when I play.?

We will have dwarves instead of elves. And maybe the dragons will change or some Uniques will come and go. But the game plays the same. We enjoy - each in our own way - of delving into the pits to secure our small town from the horrors of the monster Morgoth and saving the world.

Nick freely gives his time and vision to the game and listens to us. I believe if we all disliked the things he is doing, he would stop and reconsider. But instead of fighting the tide of change, join it to help preserve the best parts while making the weaker parts better.

[Grotug]

It's true, sandtrap, one great benefit of lurking is you don't get pulled down into the mire of internet arguments! Sandtrap, now that's a good idea!

Maybe it'd be quicksand, though. Basically it'd stop you in your tracks. If you tried to walk in any direction a message would read "you are sinking! The sand reaches up to your knees!" Every time you try to move, a new message lets you know that "you are sinking! The sand is at your waste!" Keep trying to move and the situation just gets worse. "You are sinking! The sand is at your chest!" "You are sinking! The sand is reaches up to your neck!" And finally... "You are sinking! You cannot breathe! The sand is over your head!" Followed by a visit to your tombstone.

Sufficient dexterity and/or strength would be the only way you'd be able to work yourself free from it. Basically, the more DEX or STR you had the greater the chance you'd free yourself. You'd need something like 18/80 of one of them or 18/40 of both to have a 100% chance of freeing yourself each time you try. And even then you'd only be able to get free of it if you were trying to move onto a tile that was not quicksand. You would need much more STR/DEX to drag yourself through consecutive quicksand tiles.

It could actually be a terrain type rather than a trap, so that you'd see it before you step on it. You'd be prompted any time you attempt to step on it (unless you had feather falling, which would protect you from it completely). A 'Y' response would allow you to step on it, any other keypress would be registered as an 'N'. If you were confused or blinded, you would not receive such a prompt.

If you were trying to cross a bog of quicksand, say 5 tiles, you'd need much more strength and/or dexterity in order to pass without sinking. Feather falling would allow you to pass over the tiles without sinking, but you'd still use an extra turn to pass from one tile to the next.

If you tried reading ?phase door or using _Teleportation while stuck, you'd get a message like "the sand keeps you from moving!"

It would be interesting to figure out how it would affect other critters. Most early creatures would probably be thwarted by it pretty badly. It would present some interesting tactical situations. If you were to confuse a stegocentipede that you were trying to escape from, and the stegocentipede was at the edge of a quicksand bog, there'd be a good chance he'd stumble onto the quicksand, at which point he might have a 50/50 chance of freeing himself. But, if in his confusion, he moved away from the good tiles and further into the bog, then his chance of making his way out of the quicksand bog would be drastically reduced, or at least it would take him a long time to free himself once his confusion wore off. Maybe he'd be strong enough to break free eventually (he does move quickly after all).

It would require a lot of coding. The more stuck in the bog you are, the more strength/dexterity would be required to free yourself. If you were only up to your knees, you'd need less str/dex to free yourself. Deeper denizens would merely be slowed down by it, without the danger of being swallowed up. For example, you could imagine Ar Pharazon being hampered by it, but not in any real danger of dying. I guess an umber hulk would destroy the bog as he passed through it, converting sand tiles where he passed through them to be normal. @ would be happy if he could get a saber tooth tiger to stumble into a sand pit. It might be a similar situation for him as the La Brea tar pits.

I'm thinking quicksand pits might start showing up around DL15 and start becoming rare after DL53.

Tar pits could be another terrain type found deeper in the dungeon. They might start showing up around DL48. Basically a much more brutal version of a quicksand pit, with very few monsters being able to pass through without getting stuck. If Angband ever does get more terrain types, new spell types would need to be introduced to help @ pass over them safely (maybe some casters could get temporary flight).

On an unrelated side note. How come Angband doesn't have Oliphaunts? Or have the mumaks been renamed?