"Nick is going to butcher the game"

[tangar]

Who's going to maintain "Angband I" under your proposal?

Nick, Takkaria and community?

More importantly, what's stopping them from stepping up and saying "I'm branching Vanilla at 4.1, anyone who wants to keep the old monsters and classes can play my game instead"? Hell, they can also call it "Angband" and force us to use descriptors like "Nick's Angband" and "Hypothetical Alternative Maintainer's Angband" if they want. Moreover, they can do that at any time.

I'm not sure about that hypothetical 'them'. It would be the same community, why not? But there would be two versions of the game: pure Tolkien Angband for Tolkien fans and oldschool Vanilla Angband with DnD stuff and mixed universe for people who like traditional Angband setting.

Nick could make his dream (make Angband pure Tolkien) come true and everyone would be still happy.

Maybe this is bad idea. I just wanna to continue brainstorm. Please discuss, critisize/approve this idea.

[Derakon]

Nick, Takkaria and community?

Nick appears to have little interest in doing this, and takkaria even less. I know I don't want to be bothered, either. But anyone in the community is more than welcome to step up and make the game that best adheres to their own vision.

I'm not sure about that hypothetical 'them'. It would be the same community, why not? But there would be two versions of the game: pure Tolkien Angband for Tolkien fans and oldschool Vanilla Angband with DnD stuff and mixed universe for people who like traditional Angband setting.

Yes, this is all correct. All that is missing is someone willing to do the work. Come on in, the water's fine! For all the arguing going on in this thread, I don't believe anyone here would object to someone making a new Angband and calling it whatever they like.

[tangar]

Nick appears to have little interest in doing this, and takkaria even less.

It's appears that you could read minds. Wow. I've just proposed an idea and you already know others people opinions about it

I don't believe anyone here would object to someone making a new Angband and calling it whatever they like.

Sorry, but it's just demagogy. The topic of this discussion: lore changes in 'Vanilla Angband'; problem: maintainer currently transforming 'Vanilla Angband' to something new, I would call it like 'Tolkien Angband'. And you are speaking about this topic vice versa.. Is it just trolling? Quite counterproductive.

[dos350]

new game isnt angband
some branch not angband
old ver not angband cos its the living angband we care about

[mrfy]

new game isnt angband
some branch not angband
old ver not angband cos its the living angband we care about

Of course it's Angband. Have you tried it?

Sure feels like Angband to me. A bit more challenging version.

[Nick]

Sorry, but it's just demagogy. The topic of this discussion: lore changes in 'Vanilla Angband'; problem: maintainer currently transforming 'Vanilla Angband' to something new, I would call it like 'Tolkien Angband'. And you are speaking about this topic vice versa.. Is it just trolling? Quite counterproductive.

OK. Enough.

No matter what you say, tangar, the new changes will stay in effect, and they will become part of Angband.

I have listened patiently to everything you have had to say, on this thread and others. I have responded in detail to all the points in your "last message about this topic". I have listened while you lay down the law on what is supposed to be in Angband and what isn't in a remarkable display of arrogance (you apparently feel entitled to dictate to everyone else what should be in a game you don't even play) and ignorance (to pick just two examples, krakens have never been in Angband, and kobolds still are). But from now on, I am not going to read or respond to anything you have to say, on any topic.

You are free to keep posting here (although I could ban you, and probably have sufficient reason), and others are free to respond to you in any way they see fit. But you will have no effect on anything I do to Angband.

I should also point out that the changes I have made are not set in stone, and some of them may well be reverted before 4.2. The reason I have put them out so early and so openly is so I can get sensible, constructive feedback from the many excellent people here who care about and actually play the game. And anyone who has been paying attention will have noticed that I have already reverted a number of changes. But any suggestion you have to make will be completely ignored.

I am very aware of the relative power I have here as accepted maintainer, forum moderator and someone with write access to the Github repository, and have been cautious about misusing it. But this has now reached the point where you are derailing the positive discussions which are necessary to proceed with the plans for 4.2 in a way that will leave the actual players of Angband happiest. The time has come to make it clear that your contributions will no longer be considered.

For what it's worth, I am confident that takkaria would be happy for me to say on behalf of both of us that Derakon was completely correct. This is not surprising; he has been involved with Angband since pretty much the start, has made major contributions to the game, and actually listens to what people say.

[tangar]

Angband Vanilla vs Tolkien's Angband

OK. Enough.

Enough of what..? Enough of discussion and freedom of speach on Angband forums?

No matter what you say, tangar, the new changes will stay in effect, and they will become part of Angband.

Of course they are. Nick, you've won this 'dispute' from the beginning. I said about it in several posts in this thread - I'm among minority and this discussion won't change anything:

I myself after reading this thread feel that it's really pointless for me to participate in V-discussions anymore; it's pointless to try and save certain monsters from destruction, it won't save V

The goal of this discussion is to show that there are people who cares about Vanilla and it's lore and to spread the truth, not to change your mind (it was clear from the beginning that it's impossible).

I have listened patiently to everything you have had to say, on this thread and others. I have responded in detail to all the points in your "last message about this topic".

Yep, I've read your answers and they sounds like 'to mill the wind'. You just repeat your mantra. In my 'last word' I said everything which I wanted and I become silent as I promised - because there was nothing to add.

And now, month past from my 'last word' and for that time more people came there, people who share my point of view and do not agree with you.. So now I have to say something again. And I hoped for constructive dialogue, but you and your adepts just want shut me up. Very good way of communication, sir.

I have listened while you lay down the law on what is supposed to be in Angband and what isn't in a remarkable display of arrogance (you apparently feel entitled to dictate to everyone else what should be in a game you don't even play)

This is a lie and you know it. I've answered to it there: http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showpos...0&postcount=38

and ignorance (to pick just two examples, krakens have never been in Angband, and kobolds still are).

Yep, krakens are from TomeNET, based at old Vanilla version which also got some more DnD monsters from other variants. And krakens (and other great DnD stuff) should be at Angband, it's not only mine POV. Devs should enrich game's lore, not delete parts of it. But with your 'tolkien'-purification I doubt krakens or other cool stuff would ever appear..

Considering kobolds: you are going to butcher them a bit later, together with gnomes:

Races

• Gnome: Here we have a problem. This is a D&D race with nothing in common with anything in Middle Earth, except in as far as they're derivative of both hobbits and dwarves. Also "gnome" was Tolkien's name for the Noldor for a long time. Need to go.
• Kobold: Just no.

But from now on, I am not going to read or respond to anything you have to say, on any topic.

What could I say. It's very "productive" approach lol You are truly the community hero.. Some time ago, before you started the butchering I've left this message:

Nick, it's great to see how you 'observing' & 'scouting' at different 'battlefields' I'm learning a lot from how you look at things, trying to be unaffected and to look from the point of view of the game itself, impersonal; and at the same time being open to community. Really cool approach for maintaining the project. Respect!

// sorry for offtopic

Now I see that I was mistaken. It's alright. Mistakes makes us stronger, we should learn stuff from them..

You are free to keep post
ing here (although I could ban you, and probably have sufficient reason)

Oh, so nice words, thank you very much to make everything clear (about your personality) DD

... But actually I shouldn't use 'DD' smiles right now - it's not funny, but pretty sad... Very disappointing (without sarcasm)..

Ok, lets take a look. Which reason to ban me? That I'm not worshipping you? Good point!

and others are free to respond to you in any way they see fit. But you will have no effect on anything I do to Angband.

There wasn't any effect. Actually there is no effect from anyone. You are doing what you planned long time ago, alone. You implement 'minor' stuff which other people suggest to you to have 'visibility' that you listen people. But really it doesn't important to you, you have you own design (FFAngband -> Vanilla) and you follow it.

I should also point out that the changes I have made are not set in stone, and some of them may well be reverted before 4.2. The reason I have put them out so early and so openly is so I can get sensible, constructive feedback from the many excellent people here who care about and actually play the game. And anyone who has been paying attention will have noticed that I have already reverted a number of changes. But any suggestion you have to make will be completely ignored.

As I said in the beginning, > month ago:

I myself after reading this thread feel that it's really pointless for me to participate in V-discussions anymore; it's pointless to try and save certain monsters from destruction, it won't save V

I have a discussion in this thread only to show that there are still exist people who cares about Vanilla and it's lore. And look - there are such people. Even among your 'majority' - there are a lot of "it's sad that dark elves are gone". Do you care about it? Nope - you have 'a plan' and made decision for all people long time ago: most of the community do not care about lore so it wasn't really hard to implement your 'idea'. And a few who cares - you do not care about them. You got the PLAN!

I am very aware of the relative power I have here as accepted maintainer, forum moderator and someone with write access to the Github repository, and have been cautious about misusing it. But this has now reached the point where you are derailing the positive discussions which are necessary to proceed with the plans for 4.2 in a way that will leave the actual players of Angband happiest. The time has come to make it clear that your contributions will no longer be considered.

They won't be considered only by you. Also after some time there would be another maintainer and I hope that your 'lore' changes would be reverted...

I still don't understand why you want to ruin V-lore so much. You've created FAAngband - pure-Tolkien variant. Why not to continue work with it if you hate DnD lore? Why to mess Vanilla lore?

You said that I got 'remarkable display of arrogance'. But maybe it's your problem? Nobody asked to touch Vanilla lore. You are famous for creating the most 'heavy'-lore (FAAngand) variant and now bring your Tolkien obsession to V 'for the greater good', no matter what. Remarkable display of arrogance, I'll say.

For what it's worth, I am confident that takkaria would be happy for me to say on behalf of both of us that Derakon was completely correct. This is not surprising; he has been involved with Angband since pretty much the start, has made major contributions to the game, and actually listens to what people say.

Ok, so you could read Takkaaria mind, apparently. Good job. But the thing is:

even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth (Gandhi).

At the end I wanna add that among this forum there are people that simply fear to have disagreement with you, Nick. I don't wanna tell the names, cause it would be bad act on their privacy, but it's old and respectable members of community. The name of this topic "Nick is going to butcher the game" is a quote from discord chat with one of them, it's not my words (but I agree with them). This people say very harsh words about stuff you are doing with V (much more hursh then stuff I'm saying). But at this forum they do not critisize you. Why? Now I think I understand. I'm kinda 'new' at this forum, but this people are there for years and they knew you better, than I am. They wasn't as naive as I am:

trying to be unaffected and to look from the point of view of the game itself, impersonal// sorry for offtopic

They knew that everything depends on you and if they would argue - you would 'ban' then / ignore their suggestions / won't give access to development process, like you did it to me right now.

Now I see how stuff works there. At last. Thanks for an enlightenment.

[Philip]

One final rebuttal to all these points (it will be easy, as they are the same points they have always been, and since the rebuttals have never been challenged, they can also remain identical) and then I will be done with this.

The lore you want to preserve is not ancient angband lore. A fair amount of it was added in the JLE patch, for example. The fact that you do not know this would seem to undermine your point, but then again, the existence of the JLE patch already does it on its own, by proving that you can in fact change the lore of the game and the game will remain angband.

You not knowing that krakens were never in angband (whether anyone has proposed adding them is irrelevant) or whether kobolds have been removed (though likely, they'll be renamed, not removed) is in fact also bad for your argument, and your attempt to spin it is quite weak.

The reason (well, a reason) Nick has to ban you is that you are an asshole who is making this community a worse place to be. This has nothing to do with freedom of speech or unpopular opinions, and everything to do with your conduct.

Many of us still have access to the development process (for example, Derakon and I got the literal opposite change to mobile jellies implemented than the one Nick was originally going with). Consider why that is, perhaps? As for your old and respectable members of the community, I do somewhat wonder about your qualifications to identify either of those qualities, given your knowledge about the game's history, and your apparent social skills.

I will now be blocking tangar, because I cannot really fathom a circumstance under which I would want to read anything he writes. I may undo this later (I did with dos350, eventually). I mention this mostly because it's an option that there is cause to use here so rarely that others may not even be aware of it.

[Pahasusi]

I have the feeling that the both the forum majority and the large silent group is behind these changes and there's a very small loud minority that are opposing them.

I think there are a lot of us who feel that Angband the game is diminished by having a mismatched lore. For me and my cousin, ever since the 90's, Angband has been about Tolkien and Morgoth. It's called Angband! You are supposed to slay Morgoth! What are the other things doing there?

I for one want the ever-evolving Angband with more cohesive background.
I haven't shed any tears on any of the removed monsters - most of them have always irked me.

I also don't want FAangband! I want Angband, one town, one dungeon. This is that Angband.

Tangar, you keep repeating that there are people who like the old Angband. It is not going away. Just download and play. If you so strongly feel about some specific "perfect version of Angband", just start maintaining it!
Or like others have suggested, fork Angband and call it MVband (MultiVerseband) so that everyone knows it has a bit of everything.

Let the rest of us enjoy current maintainers work, which is shaping up to be very nice. Also very Angband.

[Antoine]

Could this thread maybe be closed?

I don't think we are going to get much more value out of it.

A.

[Nick]

Could this thread maybe be closed?

I don't think we are going to get much more value out of it.

A.

It could, but I'm reluctant to close it because

1. I don't like any closing down of discussion and
2. I think this sort of discussion would just move to a new thread; if this one is still here then it might keep this from spreading to other threads.

If you have a more specific reason for wanting it closed, let me know, by PM if you wish.

[Derakon]

Closing threads sends a clear message that the discussion is over, and that any attempt to restart it in another thread would be viewed rather dimly. If the consensus is that this thread is now completely bereft of merit (or even that whatever merit it has is grossly outweighed by its costs, in terms of damage to the community), then it should be closed. I would certainly support closing it. That said, I'm not a moderator, I don't want to be a moderator, pretty much exactly because of this kind of situation. I'd absolutely understand if you didn't want to take that step.

tangar, you should consider this mission completed, one way or another, so please stop trying to convince anyone. Those that disagree with you are not going to change their minds. All you can accomplish at this point is damaging your social standing.

[dos350]

tangar is not abusing anyone, how could u seriously talk about banning him make no sense

this is the best and most passionate thread i seen on oook in almost ten years,

by no means bereft of anything

ppl saying download and play old version havnt read or refuse to understand the other point of view

[Wiwaxia]

I have no horse in this race, I'm not particularly interested in V, but realtalk this kind of aggressive, knock-down, drawn-out argument is really not good for a community. I've done it before, honestly much worse than tengar; I know it's kinda righteously fun when you're doing it and I know it can feel like the only recourse when you disagree with someone with more power in a forum and aren't being listened to. I know it can feel like there's things coming up that wouldn't have come up otherwise. But there's way too much collateral damage. Constant arguing fucks people up. A lot of people will just quietly disengage and leave, and the ones that stay will get embattled and defensive. I'm still learning how to think without assuming someone will challenge me on anything I thing and preemptively preparing a battery of arguments to shut them down. It is really, profoundly, unhealthy. I hurt a shitload of other people in the process, too, in a way that can't really easily be fixed.

This isn't the kind of passion I want to see in a community. This is the kind of passion that eventually makes people into vicious, petty assholes whether they want to be or not. If you're upset and feel powerless, I get it, that's legitimate, but I have learned the hard way that a never-say-die brawl to the bitter, bitter, bitter end is a really bad response to unfairness in a forum. I know it can feel like you're saving a community from injustice, but a community is other people.

I don't have anything pithy to close on. I don't want to overstate how bad this thread is, I don't think it's going to blow up the community on it's own or poison everyone. It's not the end of the world and nobody is in here causing the apocalypse. Just, it's not a good thing and I hope it doesn't become a pattern.

[Pahasusi]

tangar is not abusing anyone, how could u seriously talk about banning him make no sense

this is the best and most passionate thread i seen on oook in almost ten years,

by no means bereft of anything

ppl saying download and play old version havnt read or refuse to understand the other point of view

I have read and understand Tangar's and your point of view - but I disagree with it, because it has no merits and is poorly argued. I suspect it might be the same with others.

Angband has always evolved. It will continue to evolve.

You are arguing that by evolving beyond certain point, Angband stops being Angband. Tangar has used eloquent reasons, like his/her personal experience of learning about other fantasy worlds in the game, about Angband being educational experience etc.

Those are all valid points from *his personal point of view*, but a large group of people have disclaimed the validity of his claims in the context of *Angband the game*. I'm one of those people.

Angband is not a game with specific content. It is rather a game with specific intent.

The intent of the game is not changing, even if the content of the game evolves.

If you are not happy with the contents of some specific version of Angband, don't play it, play the other version.

Angband is not like what Sony did with Playstation 3: On one version, you could install linux. Then they took this option out. Here, you always have the option of playing the version of Angband you like best.