Tweet
I love how you actually listen to our "er, feedback".
-
-
webs & running
When I walk in webs sometimes I get stuck. When I RUN, webs are not taken into account. I can run back and forth many many times and nothing happens.
Also, webs are not affected by lightning, fireball or acid spray. Ok, I guess, but I would have appreciated some more means to clear them than by hand.Comment
-
I will play this new version soon; but one of the things that I've come to appreciate (and even like) about Angband is all the different ways the DL40s are super scary; and knight templars were very formidable in this function. The knight templars fill an important niche as they are one of the few dangerous people that hit hard, cast spells and don't summon much. Is it possible they could remain but get renamed; maybe Corsair Knight? Knight Templars are a good complement to all the other dangerous breathers and summoners; I think he rounds out the midgame bestiary very nicely. I know we have berserkers but they really are a very different animal, quite literally, being more like a monster or a feral barbarian in a blinding rage, trampling over weaker monsters..
Oh, and I also wouldn't mind seeing greedy little gnomes running around in the shallower depths of the dungeons.Beginner's Guide to Angband 4.2.3 Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9c9e2wMngM
Detailed account of my Ironman win here.
"My guess is that Grip and Fang have many more kills than Gothmog and Lungorthin." --FizzixComment
-
Here is a summary of the monster changes made on this branch:
5 monsters moved shallower:
68 monsters moved deeper (and usually buffed):Code:giant black louse Bert the Stone Troll Bill the Stone Troll Tom the Stone Troll emperor wight
41 new monsters:Code:Mirkwood spider hummerhorn neekerbreeker phase spider energy vortex killer white beetle giant firefly wereworm troll priest white wraith ogre mage colbran Lokkak, the Ogre Chieftain shade spectre mature white dragon mature blue dragon mature green dragon dread shadow phantom grey wraith mature red dragon mature gold dragon mature black dragon The Queen Ant mature multi-hued dragon black wraith nether wraith Kavlax the Many-Headed storm giant ancient blue dragon ancient white dragon ancient green dragon Uvatha the Horseman ancient black dragon ancient red dragon ancient gold dragon hezrou vampire lord Adunaphel the Quiet ancient multi-hued dragon dreadmaster drolem death drake great crystal drake Akhorahil the Blind ethereal dragon Scatha the Worm Ren the Unclean Smaug the Golden Ji Indur Dawndeath storm of Unmagic elder vampire Dwar, Dog Lord of Waw eye druj skull druj great storm wyrm great ice wyrm great swamp wyrm Hoarmurath of Dir great hell wyrm great bile wyrm Great Wyrm of Thunder Glaurung, Father of the Dragons Khamûl, the Black Easterling Great Wyrm of Balance Great Wyrm of Many Colours greater Balrog The Witch-King of Angmar
23 monsters removed:Code:tamer witch old forest tree blackguard Old Man Willow blood falcon nruling necromancer abyss worm mass Beorn, the Mountain Bear (shape only) green elf archer huorn serpent of the brownlands abyss spider black-hearted huorn Maia of Nienna Maia of Mandos lord of Carn Dûm ancient spider Maia of Oromë hasty ent Gilim, the Giant of Eruman Maia of Yavanna Maia of Aulë great earth elemental (shape only) werewolf of Sauron spider of Gorgoroth Maia of Ulmo great water elemental (shape only) Fëanorian raider Nan, the Giant Maia of Manwë Maia of Varda Makar, the Warrior serpent of chaos fury Wiruin, the Maelstrom Meássë, the Bloody Wolf-Sauron (shape only) Serpent-Sauron (shape only) Vampire-Sauron (shape only)
17 monsters renamed:Code:large brown snake large yellow snake healer manes nighthawk drider giant brown tick lesser Maia acidic cytoplasm black pudding erinyes aranea greater Maia knight Templar Blue Wizard elder aranea Istar Arien, Maia of the Sun Ossë, Herald of Ulmo Radagast the Brown Polyphemus, the Blind Cyclops Atlas, the Titan Kronos, Lord of the Titans
20 monsters replaced (usually at the same level, but 6 deeper and 1 shallower):Code:jackal to wild dog dark elf to eastern dwarf bandit to ruffian dark elven mage to blacklock mage dark elven warrior to stonefoot warrior gnome mage to drúadan mage dark elven priest to ironfist priest Easterling warrior to warrior dark elven lord to dark dwarven lord Azog, King of the Uruk-Hai to Azog, Enemy of the Dwarves master rogue to brigand algroth to troll scavenger ice troll to snow troll ninja to southron assassin necromancer to dúnadan of Angmar dark elven sorcerer to stiffbeard sorcerer The Cat Lord to Tevildo, Prince of Cats
A few general themes to note:Code:raven by crow of Durthang brown yeek by terrified yeek hill orc by orc tracker brigand by rogue black orc by orc archer dark elven druid by drúadan druid half-troll by troll blackguard giant grey scorpion by giant black scorpion water troll by hill troll dagashi by southron archer greater mummy by mummified chieftain eldrak by mountain troll 7-headed hydra by 6-headed hydra 9-headed hydra by 7-headed hydra Medusa, the Gorgon by (non-unique) gorgon 11-headed hydra by 8-headed hydra The Lernaean Hydra by (non-unique) 9-headed hydra ethereal hound by hound of Tindalos Great Wyrm of Chaos by great wyrm of annihilation Great Wyrm of Law by sky dragon
- A lot of the buffed/moved deeper monsters are accounted for by an overall rework of wraiths, dragons and ghosts
- Monsters were usually replaced or removed because of being either (a) in conflict with theme or (b) boring
- Many of the new monsters (and some of the other changes) were due to overall reworking of Ainur and spiders, introduction of new monster shapes, and introduction of trees/ents
- Worth noting also are the move to have a monster named after each player class plus a novice version of each, and significant reworks of orcs, trolls and hydras
- There were also quite a few other changes to existing monsters
- The new lord of Carn Dûm is essentially the old patriarch, and the new patriarch is not far off the old knight Templar; that said, I quite like Grotug's idea of renaming knight Templar as corsair, or something
- Perhaps Ossë should come back without the nether breath
This is rather a long post, but I think it was worth doing a summary before saying this is ready for master branch. I'm very interested to hear what people think about the totality of this branch. Regardless of all other considerations it's been a lot of fun
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.Comment
-
So far I like it a lot. I haven't been too deep (only at 1000' now) and have had to restart a few times. Terrified yeeks certainly add a dimension to earlier levels ("OMG they shrieked and are waking everything up"). Enjoying finding other monster changes and learning how to deal with them.Comment
-
Ok so it seems the work on monsters come to an end. Time to make a review and give my feelings!
"5 monsters moved shallower"
Fine
"68 monsters moved deeper (and usually buffed)"
Fine except:
- hummerhorn
- neekerbreeker
Wat?? They were not annoying enough at their depth now they're buffed??
"41 new monsters"
- tamer, witch, blackguard...
Good. They match player classes and I look forward to adding more to PWMAngband since I have more classes (sorceror, unbeliever...)
- nruling
Sorry, but this is more a snoozing than a name which nobody will ever understand unless lerning the description by heart. I already struggle to remember Hezrou and company, would be better to find a name that's immediately recognizable (hint: I'd also rename the high demons, they're all D&D based and I don't see a meaning in Angband -- could steal the names from Sil no?)
- lord of Carn Dûm
Ow... in PWMAngband, I've renamed to base town Carn Dûm because it's close to the old realm of Angmar and thought it would be a perfect name. I don't see why its lords should be roaming the dungeon
Rest is fine by me.
"23 monsters removed"
- acidic cytoplasm, black pudding
Good riddance!
- erinyes
Don't get it. Why only this one? Like said above, would be better to rename all the D&D demons using Sil names (Rauko), feels more thematic.
- aranea, elder aranea
Don't get it either. Those are perfectly fine, and you added spider of Gorgoroth instead. Clearly it should have been a pure replacement: aranea -> spider of Gorgoroth (the bats with same name come in groups so it should fit the group mob better), elder aranea -> elder spider (well there's that new "ancient spider" too)
Rest is fine by me.
"17 monsters renamed"
- dark elf to eastern dwarf
- dark elven mage to blacklock mage
- dark elven warrior to stonefoot warrior
- dark elven priest to ironfist priest
- dark elven lord to dark dwarven lord
- dark elven sorcerer to stiffbeard sorcerer
Sorry, but that's clearly the change I like the least. The "dark elf" based monsters are a whole and would be replaced by some obscure stuff only a minority of people would understand about. Are those dwarven races? I don't get it... Why not simply use elven names instead? Would have been way easier to remember... Avari, Teleri, Noldor, Sindar...
- ice troll to snow troll
What was wrong with "ice"?
- The Cat Lord to Tevildo, Prince of Cats
Aha! See you can steal stuff from Sil...
"20 monsters replaced"
So what's the difference between "renamed" and "replaced"? Just the depth differs?
- brown yeek by terrified yeek
Huh? What's the point? They were brown because they were ****ing in their pants? I don't see why the color was a problem...
- dark elven druid by drúadan druid
Again this makes no sense. And even breaks the new theme, if it's to replace elves with dwarves. Just need to find a coherent theme for all dark elves and stick to it.
- giant grey scorpion by giant black scorpion
- water troll by hill troll
Again I don't get it. Must have missed some discussion somewhere because some of the changes don't seem to me really needed.
- Medusa, the Gorgon by (non-unique) gorgon
- The Lernaean Hydra by (non-unique) 9-headed hydra
Nobody could come up with a replacement for these? They're out of theme, but it's sad to lose them.
- ethereal hound by hound of Tindalos
Those are still breathing nether? Cos the ToME variant breathes time...
- Great Wyrm of Chaos by great wyrm of annihilation
- Great Wyrm of Law by sky dragon
Why? The Balance one is untouched, and chaos/law drakes still exist. I don't feel like this is really needed... If you really want a sky dragon, add the Sky Drake from ToME.
Overall it's still not as bad as I think it would be.
I wonder who will rework all the tilesets to adapt the new changes now...
PWMAngband variant maintainer - check https://github.com/draconisPW/PWMAngband (or http://www.mangband.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=9) to learn more about this new variant!Comment
-
I'll answer as best I can.
I agreed - they're deeper, but unchanged.
This is from O, where it's incredibly memorable because it's like the most annoying thing possible. It could have a different name, but for the most part when I've taken things from variants I've tried to keep the same names.
I thought all the early demons were a bit samey, so picked this one to ... well, replace, really. Erinyes were the furies in Greek mythology, so I made a new demon called fury and put it much deeper.
This is not the only monster in the removed list that could have been in the replaced list - it was a bit arbitrary where I drew the line for that post.
Again, kind of a replacement. These were kind of copied from Sil and kind of from FA and definitely based on Tolkien lore (I'm going to start quoting, and not for the last time...): "...other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them, and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed ... her offspring abode there"
So ancient spiders are her mates, and spiders of Gorgoroth her offspring (you may notice they're very like Shelob).
My problem with dark elves is that the Silmarillion dark elves existed, but were peaceful and lived like other elves, rather than being evil underground dwellers like is built into the DNA of D&D dark elves.
Yes, those are dwarven races - see this page for some details. Tolkien also wrote elsewhere that some of the eastern kindreds of the dwarves would have come under Morgoth's influence. And I really like the names
Quoting again, from the story of Helm Hammerhand:"He would go out by himself, clad in white, and stalk like a snow-troll into the camps of his enemies..."
Well from O actually
Renamed usually means they're (pretty much) unchanged, whereas replace means substantially changed, but like with rename vs remove/new it's a bit blurry.
Color wasn't a problem, but this name is more descriptive.
The druedain (the wild men of the woods from LoTR) seemed like better druids than dwarves would.
From O, including the name. Buffed and shallower...
Hill trolls are the trolls from the final battle before the black gate in LoTR; Pippin stabs one and then it falls and crushes him and he barely survives.
I couldn't think of anything better for Medusa, and hydras I have reworked so that each one is like the previous one but with an extra head and blow.
Yes, yes, and disenchantment
Sky dragons are like ToME's sky drakes, but buffed a bit
I was happy enough leaving the chaos and law drakes, but thought the wyrms were a little lame. I could remove/redo all the law/chaos/balance dragons, but I was actually trying not to do meaningless changes...
Well, that's something.
*sigh*One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.Comment
-
The basic dragon types all have baby, young, mature, ancient, and great-wyrm variants. The more exotic ones have drake and great-wyrm variants. Except now there's a couple of dragon types that only have drake or that only have great-wyrm. I don't think it's vital to hew to the previously-established pattern -- I'll admit I never questioned why the Sky Drake in ToME was a 'D' and didn't have a lesser 'd' version. But I also don't see why we'd remove perfectly functional dragon types. Great Wyrms of Law have probably one of the nastier sets of breath options in the game (sound/shards), and Great Wyrms of Chaos had some neat mental imagery to them. And I don't feel like the game has too many dragons in it currently.
Also, personal opinion: it should be Sky Wyrm, not Sky Dragon, especially if it's at a similar tier as our existing great wyrms.
As an aside, something I think would be worth looking into is the remaining "<adjective> <color> <animal>" monsters, like Large Brown Snake, Giant White Tick, etc. They're probably the dullest monsters we have in terms of characteristics and theme, and they're all over the early game, which will color newbies' perceptions of what the game is like.Comment
-
Thx for the answers
"ToME's sky drakes, but buffed a bit"
HAHAHAHAHAHA
You know that in ToME a Sky Drake is like a Tarrasque that can summon more Tarrasques. I wonder how it could be "buffed a bit"... ROFLPWMAngband variant maintainer - check https://github.com/draconisPW/PWMAngband (or http://www.mangband.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=9) to learn more about this new variant!Comment
-
Agreed. That's why I reworked the dragons in PWMAngband so each breed has full baby-young-mature-ancient-wyrm evolution, and I've even split the wyrms into Great Wyrm (+10 speed, SUMMON_DRAGON) and Ancient Wyrm (+20 speed, SUMMON_HI_DRAGON) for even more challenge at depths 90+. The only "lone" dragons remaining are Draco-lisks/liches and Sky Drakes.PWMAngband variant maintainer - check https://github.com/draconisPW/PWMAngband (or http://www.mangband.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=9) to learn more about this new variant!Comment
-
Related question: what does Dragon Scale Mail of Annihilation do? What about Sky Dragon Scale Mail?Comment
-
Don't quite understand why Law and Chaos dragons are being replaced, but very glad great wyrms of balance remain untouched. But isn't a wyrm of balance a combination of Law and Chaos? By that virtue alone, Law and Chaos dragons should remain untouched. If Sky and Annihilation are simply name changes for Law and Chaos; I think it'd be better to leave the names as they are now and just add Annihilation and Sky dragons for the simple reason that Finding Dragon Scale Mail of Annihilation kinda implies armor on similar caliber as PDSM, not less power than Balance dragon scale mail.
Great Sky Wyrm sounds nice as an addition to dragonkind. So does Great Wyrm of Annihilation. Would it hurt somehow to add these dragons without replacing others? Great Wyrm of Annihilation could have native depth of 92, deeper even than GWofBalance and even more terrible. The name 'Great Wyrm of Annihilation' kinda sounds like it should be the most terrible non unique dragon (and I've always wondered why we don't actually have a corresponding dragon to PDSM; GWofAnnhilation could be it: it breathes and resists everything but nether and nexus, has 4800hp and moves very quickly).
I do like "terrified yeek", I think it feels right and is more descriptive than brown yeek.
I don't mind neekerbreekers being moved deeper because they can be problematic at any depth, but I don't see the need to touch hummerhorns. Putting them any deeper than they have been and it's too likely @ will have _Teleportation by the time @ encounters them, rendering them less interesting. The depth they were at actually makes them more interesting than any other depth they could be found at. The deeper @ encounters them, the less interesting they are, because they become less dangerous and simply annoying. Again, I don't see the benefit of moving them deeper. Hummerhorns were pretty much perfect at their current depth. When I see them before I have _Teleportation, I know I need to be extra carerful!
Thank you for still holding out the possibility of bringing back Osse sans Nether breath. Maybe he should breathe Chaos instead?
Ice vs Snow:
It seems to me there is a long held tradition for Ice having connotations with evil, whereas snow mostly connotes with fluffy sorts of fun (snowmen, school days, sledding, snowball fights etc...). Maybe as an Aussie this is less obvious to you if you don't see much snow. At any rate, I'm not sure that the vague Tolkien association with "snow" will not be lost on pretty much everyone (though I appreciate your attention to detail re;Tolkien!); and therefore is probably not a worthwhile change. I imagine for this reason alone; and to hold some kind of consistency with the greater lore/consciousness at large (cross-platforms, cross mediums) Ice troll...giant... whatever, should remain Ice, and not be changed to snow. Maybe snow troll could be added as a weaker, younger brother to ice trolls? (just as white wolves are weaker versions of cold hounds). I actually don't mind "snow troll" and it kinda has a nice ring to it, but personally I'd much rather have it added than replacing ice trolls. But maybe an an appeal to tradition is, as fph points out in another certain thread, not always the wisest or best way forward.
Given that we have hill orc, having hill troll seems reasonable to me. I never did understand what a water troll was (a troll that lives near water? lives in water? swims around in the water?) Here I think is a missed opportunity to bring in some themes from Beowulf: namely from the bog or fen. This seems like a very fitting theme for Angband and I seem to recall from my Beowulf class many years ago that the bog or fen has a rich history in the mythologies that influenced Tolkien; and it played a pretty big part in Lord of the Rings (the marshes).
Hearthstone has two such thematic creatures: The Bog Creeper and the Fen Creeper. I think these are great names for monsters in Angband. Probably a bit late for me to be suggesting such creatures now, but maybe sometime down the line they could be considered: if we are going to lose a "water" monster (one I never cared for), maybe we could replace it with something much better: Fen Creeper and give it Grendel's description (the only one I could find at the moment is from some cliff notes:
"Although Grendel looks something like a man — having two arms (or claws), two legs, and one head — he is much larger and can defeat dozens of men at a time. He is protected from man's weapons by a magic charm. He devours some of the dead on the spot and carries others back to his lair, the cave he shares with his mother beneath a pool of water in a dark swamp. (Sounds like a wicked video game villain, doesn't he?)" That he does! *wink *wink. Although maybe Grendel was more of an Ogre than a Troll. While I'm at it I wonder if we shouldn't get Grendel as a unique in Angband?
Fury sounds good! Look forward to encountering it; a proper name for a deep dangerous demon.Beginner's Guide to Angband 4.2.3 Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9c9e2wMngM
Detailed account of my Ironman win here.
"My guess is that Grip and Fang have many more kills than Gothmog and Lungorthin." --FizzixComment
-
Regarding ice: how about Frost Trolls? We have Frost Giants already, and I agree that "Snow Troll" sounds a little unintimidating.
I dig the bog/fen suggestion for water trolls.Comment
-
I prefer snow trolls to ice trolls which always confuse me a little: Is it a troll made of ice? or a troll that lives on a glacier?
Furys I'm going to continually misread as Furries but don't let that influence your decisions.
Re dragons: Baby Wyrms of Power was a missed opportunity for cute-ness IMHO.
Grendel is in the heng-likes as an Ogre.Comment
Comment