Current master post-4.1.3

[khearn]

Thanks, that was very helpful!

I've started playing a couple of high-elf mages. It's interesting having a new set of spells to use. I'm not sure if they're better or not (yet), but I don't have any objections so far.

I know that doesn't really sound like high praise, but it's actually a fairly positive review. Remember, i've been playing this game (or its predecessors) for 30 years now, so there's a lot of inertia to overcome when it comes to changes.

[Pete Mack]

Post 4.1.3, high elf mage is ridiculously better. Before that, it was a more difficult decision, since there was a huge tradeoff in necessary experience. It was good for diving, but was painfully slow to level in a more gradual descent.

[Chud]

Post 4.1.3, high elf mage is ridiculously better. Before that, it was a more difficult decision, since there was a huge tradeoff in necessary experience. It was good for diving, but was painfully slow to level in a more gradual descent.

In the latest nightly (or close anyway) the XP modifier for high-elf still shows 200%... was it even higher than that before? I don't remember...

[Nick]

In the latest nightly (or close anyway) the XP modifier for high-elf still shows 200%... was it even higher than that before? I don't remember...

No, but classes no longer have an XP modifier. My plan has always been that races won't either; also my current plan is to make that change and no others to races.

Interested in opinions on both.

[Derakon]

No, but classes no longer have an XP modifier. My plan has always been that races won't either; also my current plan is to make that change and no others to races.

Interested in opinions on both.

My gut instinct is that the "correct" EXP rate for game pacing is about a 30-50% "penalty" (i.e. level 1 takes 13-15 EXP to get). I think it's worth considering keeping the human gimmick of needing less experience than other races to level up.

Otherwise, your proposal sounds reasonable to me.

[Nick]

New builds now on the nightlies page, with the following changes:

• The experiment of having object power calculations in a data file is over; it was intended to give players the opportunity to tweak these calculations, but the actual effect was that when I wanted to tweak them I couldn't easily even understand it. So the power code is now all back in obj-power.c. Also, the process of making the data file required some changes to power calculations, the effect of which roughly seems to have been to undervalue many weapons. So there is a gameplay result of this change, which I hope will be to nerf randart weapons a bit as Grotug and others have been calling for. I'm interested to hear how this plays out before making any other randart changes.
• Update lore correctly on detecting invisible monsters (thanks PowerWyrm)
• Fix a couple of typos in monsters
• Change book names again so that all the new book names are different from the old ones; this simplifies pref files and the use of old_class.txt (if you want to play with the old classes)
• Improve pref file processing so that invalid objects (which can arise when switching between class files) are just ignored rather than preventing the game from starting
• Update Shockbolt's tilesheet to include all the new monsters and books (but not traps, webs, etc yet)
• Give tiles in all tilesets to all the books, new and old
• Remove some constants to do with cuts, so that all the information is in player_timed.txt

This breaks savefiles, so if you're playing a game in the current version, continue with it.

I will be updating on angband.live soon; apologies for broken savefiles.

[PowerWyrm]

No, but classes no longer have an XP modifier. My plan has always been that races won't either; also my current plan is to make that change and no others to races.

Interested in opinions on both.

Don't remove the xp penalty for races. Otherwise you would have to counterbalance the bonuses races get. Who would ever play Human again? Their only advantage is their fast leveling.

Btw, the problem with lore not updated is also happening for detect evil.

[tangar]

Removing exp penalties -> step towards Nethack game balance. Is it good or bad? It's just different approach.

As Angband moved towards certain crucial trasformations recently, I think it would be wrong to stop in half way; Nick should finish his plan and implement ideas and his vision to the game completely.. And then we would be able to see the result, the whole picture.. At the same time people who like classic ways of playing Angband could play old versions or make their own variant (as I do)

About Powerwyrm concern @ humans - they could be simply assigned with new useful properties to make them desirable to play. It's how Nethack races balance works.

[wobbly]

My opinion on xp penalties is pretty much same as Derakon's above. Not sure if the numbers were exactly right, but somewhere about that. Humans keep their gimmick, while the super races get less of an xp penalty then the past to match being easy races. I don't think the races need to truly balance, I think easy/challenge options is actually better.

[fizzix]

I played my first game (in a while) as a hobbit blackguard, forced descent. I played on the nightlies on angband.live. I died at about dungeon level 39, so I didn't make it too far. I'll post my feedback and suggestions.

1. I love the new monster changes, and I greatly appreciate the effort to have new distinctive monsters. This is a very good direction to continue in.
2. I'm not sure how I feel about the shield bash, although I don't fully understand the mechanic yet.
3. Dungeon levels do seem more varied every time I play, and this is a good thing.
4. Blackguard spells seem way too mana costly. You don't get the first spell until level 5, you can't gain enough mana to cast it until level 10 or so. I think all the spell costs in the dark rituals book can be cut by two and still would be expensive. I don't know what other spells they get access to.
5. Blackguards desperately need some form of escape spell in that book. There's the fear spell but that's very inconsistent (and costly).
6. The blackguard class felt a bit slim. There were very few spells, and they seemed just to be a weak warrior class. Maybe I was missing something.
7. I had a lot of trouble dealing enough damage to things for most of the game. It was a big struggle.
8. Are blows level dependent now rather than being based only on STR and DEX?
9. Needed items seem to drop a bit later than otherwise. These include stuff like rings of free action and see invisible. I didn't have free action before carrion crawlers started showing up. And I had a hell of a time with invisible creatures.
10. Some monsters seem too difficult. Huorns were a big culprit here. They are fast, tanky, deal a lot of damage, and will chase you across the level. This is too powerful for where they are. I would make them slow, or have very limited tracking range. I would be very careful of having monsters that force you to bail on a level before at least 45 (where Adunaphel used to show up).
11. I was killed by a poison breath from a mature dragon that dealt ~250 damage to me, which was more in line from what I remember from even Ancient green dragons. Did breath attacks get boosted? If so, this is probably too high for something that you don't even get the option to resist. (speaking of, a temporary poisons resistance spell would fit for the blackguard class.)
12. I found more useful stuff in town than in the dungeon. This is a sample size of one so it might just have been unfortunate.
13. I found no source of teleport other, which meant that I couldn't deal with the few vaults I came across since there were far too many things that could one-shot me. This is a very old problem.
14. Blood falcons are probably still two strong. I phased into a room with one and it got off 12 attacks before I could move. That's probably two many. At very least make them evil so that detect evil works.
15. Speaking of, detect evil staves were my only option for detection and they were rarely showing up in the magic shop. It's really hard to play without a detection spell of some sort unless you're very tanky. Just opening a door to a blood falcon can often be an insta-kill that you can't deal with or predict beforehand.

I'll probably think of some more feedback later, but this is what I came up with now.

By the time I died I was already getting tired of the game, since I was being forced to teleport around. Already the native depth monsters were severely outclassing me. Perhaps I was just unlucky with gear, I don't know.

[Sphara]

I've tried to get a good ironman necromancer going in the nightlies but it is just too tough. The early damage is not only ridiculously low, it's also very unreliable. Fail rate for Nether Bolt is very high at the start even if you sacrifice extra points to INT. It stays that way for quite some time. Monsters resisting Nether Bolt is also iffy. A thing like green naga takes forever to kill. In one game I kited Lugdush with escaping ring and Nether Bolt on an empty level. It took about 15 minutes.

So, at least some early offense boost would be appreciated. It feels like 4.1.3 ranger can deal more damage with just spells than a nightlies necromancer. Early detect/escape spells are nice but also start with a very high fail rate.

I've never made it to see the third book so this minor rant is exclusively about the early game. I've absolutely no idea what kind of character a late-game necromancer is

[fph]

I've tried playing a few necromancers recently, too. Tips and comments:

1. For the very early game, you really need to take care and fight in corridors only, because at first the fail rate penalty for casting in the light matters. As soon as you get more mana, it's another thing you can safely forget about.
2. Undeads are immune to Nether Bolt, but they can be damaged with Tap Unlife (2nd book).
3. As soon as you can afford the mana, it's a good idea to turn into a rogue with Bat Form and explore the level picking fights.
4. That said, the early game is slow and some help from objects is needed: a ring of the mouse, a good launcher, a rod of light to deal with the orcs can speed it up considerably. I wouldn't mind a slight de-nerf.
5. Overall, in the early game a necromancer feels like a mage with much worse spells: a magic missile that lots of monsters resist, no phase door, no equivalent of Light Area to extend your line of sight, underpowered detection with no way to locate stairs, no elemental attacks, an area damage spell which I never use because it poisons yourself (and with CLW/CSW not curing poison anymore that's annoying to deal with). Book 1 in particular looks underwhelming to me when compared to the mage's one.
6. I have never gotten below DL50, but it feels like the necromancer may become powerful in the late game once you get the dungeon books: it has the perfect vault-cracking kit with mass teleport other, destruction and enlightenment, paired with some unresistable damage spells and Command which looks at least interesting to try.
7. That said, I don't see an area where the necromancer's spell list outshines the mage's. What are the strengths of a necromancer supposed to be? Is shapechanging that strong?
8. The radius of sight formula seems on point: small radius in the early game, then it gets better, with the bat form getting a bonus.
9. If I understand correctly the formula, the vampire spells only heal an amount of hit points equal to the player level. That's not much, considering that they also have the drawback of teleporting you right next to a monster (which, as a caster, is something that you pretty much want to avoid).

[Sphara]

Thanks fph. That's a good set of tips.

I knew about the benefits of casting in the darkness and Nether Bolt still has too high fail rate at the beginning imo. Also the default for INT in character creation is staggeringly low.

I assume you were referring to the new version with the new monster set, right? Blacklock mages and ironfist priests present a life-threatening danger for an early necromancer. All the orcs are more dangerous and resist NBolt. Priest having Summon Kin can be devastating. One priest used to be a threat, now its full-alarm mode seeing one awake. Terrified yeeks waking up everything. And so on.. it's really heavy.

This all said, I should probably try it with recalling active before criticizing.

[fph]

Yes, my necro runs were with recall enabled. Ironman sounds a lot more brutal, with limited possibilities to heal and escape fights. I think the only way to survive might be using Bat Form a lot, and you'd still need some luck with loot to make it through to statgain depth.

[Estragon]

Thanks fph. That's a good set of tips.

I knew about the benefits of casting in the darkness and Nether Bolt still has too high fail rate at the beginning imo. Also the default for INT in character creation is staggeringly low.

I assume you were referring to the new version with the new monster set, right? Blacklock mages and ironfist priests present a life-threatening danger for an early necromancer. All the orcs are more dangerous and resist NBolt. Priest having Summon Kin can be devastating. One priest used to be a threat, now its full-alarm mode seeing one awake. Terrified yeeks waking up everything. And so on.. it's really heavy.

This all said, I should probably try it with recalling active before criticizing.

Definitely maximise INT, I believe the autoroller hasn't been adjusted for the new classes yet. Whilst the early levels are tough, it gets substantially easier when you learn Disenchant, and (in my experience) within a few levels you should have plenty of SP. Haven't tried ironman yet, maybe I'll give a shot on the new nightly.