Class/magic feature branch

[Ighalli]

Having played a full game as a Rogue, I have to say I'm not at all a fan of the stealing mechanic. I think it breaks verisimilitude too much when monsters scream loudly enough to wake others from pick pocket attempts, but no one wakes up when "The ancient gold dragon screams in agony". Perhaps the Hit and Run spell could be reworked to make a steal attempt and a teleport rolled into one (as NPC rogues), but the monster doesn't scream. Or maybe all combat should wake up nearby monsters unless the victim doesn't make noise for whatever reason. >: )

Overall the class felt quite powerful until the very endgame when my damage output was only ~400 vs. evil / ~300 others. Teleports, detections, and recharging made for a fun round. I dove to 4900' in only 44k turns, but was still only cLevel 38. Ladder here.

I think the Rogue Book of Trickery should be renamed to Book of Translocation or Teleportations or something similar. Every spell in that book is a form of teleportation, and only Hit and Run is particularly tricky.

[wobbly]

Is the code to interupt running working properly? I had a panther come through a closed door, it was displayed on the screen when it came through yet my character just kept on going. Haven't changed any settings from default

[Nick]

Is the code to interupt running working properly? I had a panther come through a closed door, it was displayed on the screen when it came through yet my character just kept on going. Haven't changed any settings from default

That sounds like a bug.

[wobbly]

Ok so I get fox form a little better now, did you deliberately start it out with a weapon that does no damage? 2 blows of 0 damage is not too impressive. Didn't even realize the thing was designed for melee till I tried a start where I bought a bigger weapon. I'd prefer them to start with a staff, that'd be much more pleasant.

Also you may want to look at the stat layout unless you want dwarves to be the ultimate druids & elves cop a penalty from wisdom. Going to be a fair bit easier to melee with a dwarf too, plus more hps... Some variants have casters that don't have a fixed caster stat, you could make it the higher of wisdom or int for instance.

Minor note, you can't inscribe in fox form. Guess it's hard to write without thumbs. Also you can pick up gold with 'g'et but not automatically.

Also can't squelch something on the ground.

Ok 48 instead of 28 with Dethanc, that's pretty good. So if you've got a decent weapon fox form is strong, if you don't pretty useless.

[Philip]

The way the stat thing is resolved in FA is to swap INT/WIS for elves/dwarves, which I feel is appropriate in the context of Tolkien, but is also rather a radical change, since suddenly Dwarves make good mages and rogues (!?), and bad priests and paladins. One non-thematic benefit of this change would be that there would suddenly be a number of high wisdom bonus, high stealth races, and there would be a high intelligence, high hit dice race. This means that rangers and blackguards would have natural races to use.

[Voovus]

Some comments on the branch after playing rogue for a bit.


General comments:

1. Reduction in traps was a good move and has made the game more enjoyable. I suspect that I wouldn't miss the traps if they disappeared completely, but I appreciate that many others are likely to disagree.

2. Is there any reason why there is still lava in town? It occasionally generates near the stairs and I have accidently stepped into it a few times after recalling from the dungeon.

3. Zapping a sleeping creature with Scare Monster produces the standard message ("runs away in terror"), while the monster continues to sleep peacefully.

4. The dungeon feeling getting messed about by wrong class spellbooks is a bit frustrating. It happens a bit too often, now that there are so many of them.


Rogue specific comments:

5. The rogue is fun.

6. Object detection combined with connected stairs is, and has always been, potentially abusive. I don't mind (since I don't have to play that way!), but I hope this isn't going to be considered as the intended player behaviour, with nerfs to other aspects of the rogue in order to balance it.

7. Stealing. To me, this is possibly the most interesting side of the rogue. Sadly, even after the recent rebalancing, this is still not working terribly well.
Here is how I've found it:
(i) I don't see much point in stealing from non-uniques, as there is plenty of random rubbish on the floor as it is.
(ii) Stealing from a unique has become extremely difficult. Before, @ could steal as much as @ wanted to @'s heart's content - that was too easy. Now @ with Legendary stealth and about 18/100 total dex can't even steal a trinket from a sleeping Uldor. I think roughly the right balance would be when @ could, on average, steal about 1 item from a tough-but-sleeping unique. One possibility would be to make the Hit and Run spell always succeed with the stealing on a sleeping victim, but also always wake them up. (This would also make Half-troll and dwarf rogues more viable, provided they at least manage sneak up to a monster without waking it.)
(iii) There is still an incentive to keep low level uniques alive and farm them for loot. In fact, this problem is now worse than before, as they are the only ones @ can really pickpocket.

[wobbly]

So some comments from playing the rogue. Seemed in a good place, I think the reduction in hps is right. I know some older players are less happy about losing hps they were used to having but rogue can pick & choose there battles and still get high melee damage, seems ok to punish over reaching.

The reduction in books seems a godsend for device rogues. I played without recall & still had slots for a long device list which I recharged & spamed continuously. Seems device recharge is too friendly, probably always has been? Speed is way to sturdy. I was permahasted since I got it, never saw it blow. Shouldn't it be more I'll haste for this important situation? Currently it's oh I'm not hasted lets change that. With attack devices you could have them blow up much quicker and still get a full stack collecting from the floor. The only reason not to have around ten destruct stafs supercharged by endgame is weight and charge drain. Perhaps annihilation is in the right place and only the mid-upper mid needs fixing.

Randarts were ridiculous to the point of spoiling the enjoyment of my game. I enjoy the occasional crazy artifact. This run I saw nothing but crazy artifacts.

I never really used my 2nd book. Good spells and glad to have them all in one book. However fail rates on tele, to devices were always lower. I think that's ok. Books a single slot for all the escapes.

[Sky]

angband-win-4.1.2-204-g0bb0e8068
when casting Tap Magical Energy, then select the wand (in this case Wand of Wonder) the game crashed. After relaunch, no crash.

[Sky]

some thoughts about the new mage.

1. you made Frost Bolt cost 5 mana .. this is insane. At CL27 i have 55sp, and still struggling with orcs and snagas.

2. "always-beams" electric bolt is nice but the downsides are too harsh. i tend to destroy pretty much anything i cast this on. The same goes for Acid Spray.

3. no TO. Not being able to buy the book from the store is deadly. I don't know how many people here are willing to grind 3~4 CL by killing breeders but i can't see a way to otherwise dive to depths that give you the 3rd book, since you got 30~40sp which barely cast 6~8 bolts. On top of this, while Frost bolt is nice for hydras which are plentiful at the beginning, the lack of the staple Acid Bolt is just too much.
So basically this class is telling me "go ahead and dive, except i'll take away the two most important spells you have, and i'll nerf the other ones, AND if you don't dive, you don't get the spells".

The only reason i'm still alive is that i found a just-so-slightly OOD dragon armor on DL3.

4. Looks like we're still a bit too generous with the XP for casting new spells.

also,no spear of light, and no stone to mud. and completely walled off special rooms.


more coming.

[jevansau]

I think the new mage has a longer period being weak than the old mage, but ends up even stronger.
I found you had to go as stealthy as possible, and use every available means of dealing damage. Unless you get extremely lucky with equipment, spells will not be your main damage dealing method for much of the game.
I'd agree that making the early attack spells a bit cheaper would be a good thing.

[PowerWyrm]

Mages are not really a problem. I've won a with a bookless mage using only devices and it's really not that hard. See spells as a support thing rather than the main source of damage. What's really missing is a "pure caster" class, like the Sorceror in ToME or PWMAngband.

[Sky]

that's just being silly, saying that the MAGE shouldn't rely on spells for damage. Yes it should.

[Huqhox]

that's just being silly, saying that the MAGE shouldn't rely on spells for damage. Yes it should.

I entirely agree. Mages should rely on spells/magic for any serious battles, only falling back to melee/bows for small fry it isn't worth expending mana on

[Derakon]

that's just being silly, saying that the MAGE shouldn't rely on spells for damage. Yes it should.

The mage should rely on magic, in whatever forms that takes. Spells are just one kind of magic.

[Philip]

I entirely agree. Mages should rely on spells/magic for any serious battles, only falling back to melee/bows for small fry it isn't worth expending mana on

The problem with this is that it is the opposite of how it could conceivably work - if mana is plentiful enough to take you through a serious battle, then expending mana on small fry is going to be the lowest cost option every time. Bows have a permanent cost in the form of possibly lost arrows, melee costs hp and can lead to inventory damage, devices can't be recharged to their original values, but spells only cost sp, which regenerates.

The notable exception is Ironband, in which SP does not in fact regenerate over time, but only on a new level, so players have to conserve it very carefully. This means that for certain enemies you might use direct damage spells, because they are powerful and reliable, but with small fry you will indeed use the comparatively plentiful arrows and melee (there are no devices) because you can't afford to kill an entire level of monsters with spells. This is not a system that would be viable in V without a significant overhaul of just about everything.