Class/magic feature branch

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  • Estie
    Veteran
    • Apr 2008
    • 2344





    It happened often with stacking items, one time in town when I was buying ammo.

    Comment

    • mrfy
      Swordsman
      • Jul 2015
      • 328

      With the recent update, I'm getting "Gear object mismatch Phase Door - please report" when I buy stuff from the town. Let me know if you need a savefile (+randart.log or .txt?). Seems to happen when I buy anything from any of the shops.

      Comment

      • Nick
        Vanilla maintainer
        • Apr 2007
        • 9634

        Thanks for the requested reports. I have realised that it was a stupid request, and removed the responsible piece of code - my apologies for wasting your time.

        The latest builds are now up for Windows and macOS on the build page (which thanks to myshkin should from now on be only producing the latest builds), with source here.

        This build has the nerfs to the blackguard class discussed upthread - impaired HP regen; reduced damage, and confuse and stun chance, from shield bashes; and reduced stacking of blessing and berserk buffs (casting when buffed will only extend by 5 turns). Also, if anyone notices whether the slowdown is fixed, please let me know.
        One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
        In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

        Comment

        • Ingwe Ingweron
          Veteran
          • Jan 2009
          • 2129

          Been playing necromancers for the feature branch on angband.live (no win yet), but have a few observations/comments:

          Necro

          1. I think starting fighting is nerfed too much (not just for necro). Survival in the first 5 levels of the dungeon is almost entirely dependent on luck.

          2. I find shape changing is virtually useless. Then again that may be because I'm not versed in its intricacies.

          3. Now that there is a necro class, consider having darkness scrolls, staves, and spells show contours of room when used in a room (c.f., light).

          4. !*enlightenment* used to show location of every monster on level for one turn (in vanilla) but now shows only close by. Was this changed for the feature branch, or also for vanilla? Why? Given their extreme rarity, I don't think it was overpowered to have that one glimpse into monster location for one turn on the entire level. [I always saved these VERY rare items, if I could find one, to hunt Sauron, and if extremely lucky enough to get two, then to hunt Morgoth].

          5. Holleneth used to map an area commensurate with a scroll or stave of mapping, but now shows only a very small area. Why?
          “We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see.”
          ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

          Comment

          • Nick
            Vanilla maintainer
            • Apr 2007
            • 9634

            Originally posted by Ingwe Ingweron
            Been playing necromancers for the feature branch on angband.live (no win yet), but have a few observations/comments
            Thanks, I'll look at those soon.

            Current plan is to get all the issues on this thread (plus a couple more balance tweaks to 4.1.2, which will then com in to this branch as well) roughly sorted over the next few days. Then Gwarl will run a comp for this branch, probably with no savefile and it's just play whatever race/class you want, in the hope of testing them all out at once
            One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
            In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

            Comment

            • Nick
              Vanilla maintainer
              • Apr 2007
              • 9634

              All right! New builds are up for Windows and macOS on the build page, source zipfile here.

              Changes are:
              • Banish, Mass Banish and Destruction now affect vault monsters again
              • Druids start with a whip
              • Fix bug where monsters hardly ever hit the player
              • Fix bug where player didn't get a move for ten turns after throwing something
              • Fix bug where monsters were not detected by !*Enlightenment*
              • Make darkness cast by necromancers map rooms in the same way that light spells do


              I think this now covers all the bugs and balance issues reported in this thread, but please tell me if I'm wrong. I hope this branch is now competition-ready, so please do let me know if I've missed something or if there are further issues. Thanks very much everyone for your helpful reports and discussion.

              On your Necro comments, Ingwe:
              1. I'll leave this one for now and see what people think after the comp
              2. Others have liked shapechanges (in particular, I think the necro's Vampire is really powerful), and they are optional - again, the competition may give more enlightenment
              3. Good idea; added
              4. Bug; fixed
              5. Actually, Holhenneth used to not map at all; continue complaining and I may take it away again
              One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
              In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

              Comment

              • Estie
                Veteran
                • Apr 2008
                • 2344

                I have levelled a necro to 50; dump: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=21608

                The game version I played on was angband-4.1.2-180-gabe3acb9d.

                Save file and randart file are uploaded here, if anyone wants to play around with an endgame necromancer:





                where the the first one needs to be placed in the save folder, the second in the user folder.

                Reading Ingwe´s report, I picked halftroll, distributed points between str dex and int, bought a lucern hammer with my starting gold and took it from there.

                Playing without light takes some getting used to, but it kindof works. Which is as well, since the only artifact lightsource I found was cursed - .

                Sometimes constitution gets increased for no apparent reason; I found that annoying, as change in hp is a danger signal and draws my attention. Whats the point of this behaviour ?

                Some of the spells seem off; others are great utility. I didnt bother with damage spells as my start was with low int. I am going to play around a bit more before drawing conclusions.

                Comment

                • Nick
                  Vanilla maintainer
                  • Apr 2007
                  • 9634

                  Originally posted by Estie
                  Sometimes constitution gets increased for no apparent reason; I found that annoying, as change in hp is a danger signal and draws my attention. Whats the point of this behaviour ?
                  Necromancers get +2 CON when on darkened square, -2 CON when on light squares.
                  One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
                  In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

                  Comment

                  • Estie
                    Veteran
                    • Apr 2008
                    • 2344

                    I see - I really dont like that and would disable it during play if I had the option.

                    How about a different benefit, for example a -/+ on spell fail chance on dark/light squares ?

                    Comment

                    • Voovus
                      Adept
                      • Feb 2018
                      • 158

                      Estie's suggestion for the spell fail instead of Con change for necromancers sounds like a good idea, and I think it's worth trying. With the current setup (yes, I know I'm sort of responsible) I found myself constantly pushing for an extra +4 Con, just to be on the safe side.

                      Originally posted by Nick
                      Banish, Mass Banish and Destruction now affect vault monsters again
                      "We love the Vanilla Maintainer" day celebrated in Angband

                      Comment

                      • Nick
                        Vanilla maintainer
                        • Apr 2007
                        • 9634

                        Originally posted by Voovus
                        Estie's suggestion for the spell fail instead of Con change for necromancers sounds like a good idea, and I think it's worth trying. With the current setup (yes, I know I'm sort of responsible) I found myself constantly pushing for an extra +4 Con, just to be on the safe side.
                        Yeah, I was thinking that too.
                        One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
                        In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

                        Comment

                        • Ingwe Ingweron
                          Veteran
                          • Jan 2009
                          • 2129

                          Originally posted by Nick
                          Necromancers get +2 CON when on darkened square, -2 CON when on light squares.
                          Yeah, on angband.live I've pushed a necro to DL 98 when @ was CL 37. Have been working DL 97/98 to try and get Con. Now, at CL 40, natural Con maxed to 18/00, with equip giving +7 to Con, and the the light malus of -2, and still only 541 hps. Well inside "one-shot" danger, making any attempt at the bosses impossible. This with a High Elf, that got +1 to Con from race. I'm finding the necro is just very "grindy" at this moment and currently not that fun to play.

                          Edit: Now up to CL 42, and still less than 600 hps.

                          All in all, I haven't found the feature branch that great. The new classes are interesting, the new spells add some flavor, but the nerfs to fighting make all of them much less viable, much more grindy, and less fun to play.

                          In the first 5 levels the nerfs to fighting result in reliance on luck for survival.

                          The necro constitution malus is pretty horrible, a 42 level High Elf with max Con and +7 Con gear, and still has less than 600 hps.

                          The extra shots nerf has made even the greatest bows pale in comparison to melee, even for rangers.

                          The pull-back of utility spells across virtually all the magic using classes far outweighs the reduction in number of books. A lot more inventory slots have to be used to make up for it. I find it tedious. And by the time fail rates are low enough and mana pools high enough, the "battle" spells (including shape changes) are pathetic compared to melee.

                          The nerfs have gone much too far, in my opinion. For all the changes, might as well just play a warrior. The changes have pretty much pushed all the classes into melee anyway.

                          The beginning game is too reliant on luck, and the end-game has become a boring grind. I'm not having fun.
                          Last edited by Ingwe Ingweron; May 12, 2018, 19:26.
                          “We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see.”
                          ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

                          Comment

                          • Nick
                            Vanilla maintainer
                            • Apr 2007
                            • 9634

                            Originally posted by Ingwe Ingweron
                            All in all, I haven't found the feature branch that great. The new classes are interesting, the new spells add some flavor, but the nerfs to fighting make all of them much less viable, much more grindy, and less fun to play.
                            OK, I'm going to need specifics.

                            Originally posted by Ingwe Ingweron
                            In the first 5 levels the nerfs to fighting result in reliance on luck for survival.
                            What nerfs to fighting? Rogues are weaker in the early game, but paladins are stronger, and the other existing classes have stayed the same. Monsters and objects have remained unchanged. Are you talking about attacking spells?

                            Originally posted by Ingwe Ingweron
                            The necro constitution malus is pretty horrible, a 42 level High Elf with max Con and +7 Con gear, and still has less than 600 hps.
                            That should be encouraging you to stay in the darkness

                            I do think Estie's idea about spell failure might be the way to go here.

                            Originally posted by Ingwe Ingweron
                            The extra shots nerf has made even the greatest bows pale in comparison to melee, even for rangers.
                            That was a starting position for the allocation of extra shots, to make it noticeable - I guess I achieved that. I think making it more granular is definitely a win, but maybe things that get extra shots should be getting more. I had also intended to give rangers +1 every 5 levels instead of every ten; I will now do that.

                            Originally posted by Ingwe Ingweron
                            The pull-back of utility spells across virtually all the magic using classes far outweighs the reduction in number of books. A lot more inventory slots have to be used to make up for it. I find it tedious. And by the time fail rates are low enough and mana pools high enough, the "battle" spells (including shape changes) are pathetic compared to melee.
                            I see your point about utility spells (other people have made this point too), and I think re-introducing some is probably a good idea. Again, this was a starting position.

                            In fact, I think the important point here is that this entire branch is a starting position. The plan for 4.2 has expanded somewhat to include
                            1. Rework of classes (partly done in the current branch) and races (not started);
                            2. Rework of the monster list (I've thought about this a lot but only done a little in development);
                            3. Some work on artifacts and some other stuff (see this thread);
                            4. Some other miscellaneous stuff (there's been discussion of vaults and how they're selected, for example).


                            At the moment we're in the first part of point 1, and so there's a lot to happen before we actually have a fully balanced new version. I'm not playtesting a lot, so I don't have a very good idea of how the new stuff is working over the course of a game.

                            So my advice is to complain more frequently, and be specific
                            One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
                            In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

                            Comment

                            • Ingwe Ingweron
                              Veteran
                              • Jan 2009
                              • 2129

                              Originally posted by Nick
                              That should be encouraging you to stay in the darkness

                              I do think Estie's idea about spell failure might be the way to go here.
                              Well, when wielding The Pick of Erebor gives +3 Con, but also has +1 light, resulting in a net +1 to Con for a necro, when High Elf is a "good" Con race to begin with, when all together gear is giving +7 to Con and @ has maxed natural 18/00 Con, and still can't get over 600 hps, grinding away for experience levels, it seems to me the curve has gone awry. Staying in the dark actually loses this necro more hps!

                              Hopefully, a change to spell failure instead is the way to go, but please make it similar to the edged-weapon malus for priests; that failure rate is overcome as the priest increases in level and wisdom. A high level necro with maxed Int should find light irrelevant. Heck, even the uruk-hai fight just fine in the mid-day sun.

                              I'll try and give more specifics on the rest when I don't feel on tilt. Right now, I'm taking a pause from the grind.
                              “We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see.”
                              ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

                              Comment

                              • Nick
                                Vanilla maintainer
                                • Apr 2007
                                • 9634

                                New builds for Windows and macOS up on the build page (and source zipfile) with the following changes:
                                • Double values of extra shots appearing on egos and standarts, and ranger shot bonus - still about half what they were before;
                                • Changes to blows calculations, the interesting bits being:
                                  • Druids, necros and blackguards get 5 blows max;
                                  • Strength multipliers (which affect how quickly the class gets more blows) are: Mage - 2; Priest, Druid, Necro - 3; Rogue, Ranger - 4; Warrior, Paladin, Blackguard - 5;
                                  • Rogues minimum weapon weight for blows calculations is now 2 pounds, so they can get more blows by using light weapons; blackguards' minimum is 10 pounds, so they may as well use heavy weapons;
                                  • Starting weapons have been changed to be more sensible in line with the above changes;
                                • Necro penalty for being on a lit square is now the same as the priest's sharp weapon penalty;
                                • Class hitdice are now: Mage - 0; Druid, Priest, Necro - 2; Rogue - 4; Ranger - 5; Paladin - 6; Blackguard - 7; Warrior - 9.


                                This class melee and HP stuff has been a bit random up to now, because I failed to even think about these values for the most part. Hopefully it all makes sense - let me know.
                                One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
                                In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

                                Comment

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