V 3.5 now in feature freeze

**DaviddesJ** · July 30, 2013, 13:44

Originally posted by Patashu

Have you ever played Nethack?

Briefly. Long before most of the things you mentioned were added (no branches, for example). I wasn't impressed then, and the game didn't get better over time.

It's a good illustration of how different people just like different things. Obviously, some people love it, or they wouldn't have made it that way.

**DaviddesJ** · July 30, 2013, 13:48

Originally posted by PowerWyrm

What's the point of having "cheat lore" option when you can get the info by simply opening a text file?

Convenience.

What's the point of penalizing "cheat lore" when you can get the info by simply opening a text file? Inconvenience?

**Oramin** · July 30, 2013, 15:05

Coming back to Angband, I'm not trying to persuade anyone to play any particular way. I think almost everyone who has ever played Angband has consulted some spoilers. But people should all decide for themselves how much information they want to read and how much they want to discover. That's the way it has always been and always should be. The option to discover only monster information as you go is a great option for those who prefer that. But the reality is that many/most Angband players have always been comfortable with consulting and using spoilers, the number of people who think "looking at a spoiler" is like "editing your save file to make yourself superhuman" is vanishingly small.

Sure people shoud be free to consult the external spoilers. I do it from time to time myself and I don't consider that to be cheating.

I've already explained to you why providing free information within the game itself is cheating. Yet you haven't directly addressed the argument. Here it is again for your convenience:

Suppose you are playing a game with a persistent map.

In the beginning, in order to have a copy of the map, you have to engage in copious note taking.

Finally somebody decides that is inconvenient and includes an automapping feature so that a record is kept of the map where your character has explored.

See the difference between the map that you have earned by exploring and having the full map revealed in-game the instant you start playing?

Or how about if you are playing a game where you speak with NPCs and the conversations are the same between games.

In the beginning, in order to have a copy of the conversations, you have to engage in copious note taking.

Finally somebody decides that is inconvenient and includes a log of the in game conversations so that a record is kept of conversations that your character has had.

See the difference between the log of conversations that you have earned by exploring and talking to NPCs and having every conversation in the log before you've ever played the game?

There's a difference between a convenient method of recalling information you have already earned by playing the game and getting free information.

Now, David, would you consider those situations to be cheating?

It was a decision made a long time ago for Angband that getting free information within the context of the game would be considered cheating. Just like getting infinite lives or getting free items (if I recall the wizard mode settings correctly; I haven't looked in years).

You're trying to persuade us to accept that getting free information within the context of the game isn't cheating and, therefore, Vanilla should be changed to reflect your personal preferences. The way I see it, you have three reasonable options:

1. Directly address the argument and persuade the devs and the community.

2. Play however you choose and accept the cheating tag.

3. If the cheating tag bothers you so much, either spend a couple of seconds looking stuff up outside of the game, rely on your personal memory from your vast 20+ years of experience, or compile your own personal version of Vanilla with the cheating tag removed.

**DaviddesJ** · July 30, 2013, 16:04

Originally posted by Oramin

I've already explained to you why providing free information within the game itself is cheating. Yet you haven't directly addressed the argument. Here it is again for your convenience:

From the very beginning, one of the core principles of Angband was that everything in the game is open and public. It's easy to look up for yourself what monsters can do, how spells work, what various pieces of equipment do, how the time model works, etc., etc. You don't even have to interpret the source code, there are "spoiler" files that present all of this information as conveniently as possible. It's one of the things that attracts people to the game. You say yourself that you look things up when you feel like it.

The person who looks something up in an external file is getting exactly the same information as someone who looks it up inside the game. Some people prefer one and some people prefer the other. Some people like the flavor aspect of having their in-game knowledge about monsters gradually increase over time, and only consulting external sources when they feel like it. Other people like simply having all of the information presented to them all the time. One way isn't better or worse than the other, they just reflect different preferences.

(When Angband was originally created, it didn't even have multiple windows. So the in-game monster knowledge didn't matter much, since it didn't automatically pop up for every monster you fight, you would have to do keystrokes just to look at it. If you're going to call it up, you might as well switch to a spoiler file, it's about the same. The convenience of having it in the monster knowledge is much greater now that the information can be displayed automatically.)

Since neither way of playing (complete monster knowledge in game, or viewing external spoiler files) gives an advantage or disadvantage relative to the other, neither should be considered "cheating". The reason that in-game monster knowledge gradually accumulates was never intended as some sort of handicap, since all of that information is freely available anyway. It's just a way for some people to enjoy accumulating that information, and to not be flooded with lots of information if they don't want. That's why it makes sense to let people turn it on or off, as they prefer.

1. Directly address the argument and persuade the devs and the community.

OK.

**Oramin** · July 30, 2013, 16:19

There you go, much better. However, you didn't address whether you consider the two scenario I laid out should be considered cheating.

I'll still address your argument in the previous post, but I'd appreciate knowing exactly where you are drawing the line on convenience and why.

**DaviddesJ** · July 30, 2013, 16:29

Originally posted by Oramin

There you go, much better. However, you didn't address whether you consider the two scenario I laid out should be considered cheating.

I'll still address your argument in the previous post, but I'd appreciate knowing exactly where you are drawing the line on convenience and why.

If you've got a "game" that depends on secret information, then it's cheating to have the information in advance. For example, if you were appearing on Jeopardy, it would be cheating to surreptitiously obtain a list of all of the questions and answers, in advance.

Angband isn't like that. Everything in the game is public and always has been. There aren't any secrets. Some people may choose to reveal and study more information, and some less, but it's all available to anyone who wants it. A lot different from Jeopardy.

**Oramin** · July 30, 2013, 16:40

I understand that point of view but we weren't addressing Jeopardy.

What about those two scenarios I laid out?

**Derakon** · July 30, 2013, 17:16

Oh my god you two just make out already.

**DaviddesJ** · July 30, 2013, 17:34

Originally posted by Derakon

Oh my god you two just make out already.

I'm trying my best to limit the off-topic discussion here, but he keeps insisting that I analyze various hypothetical scenarios in various other types of games. I don't like just ignoring questions, but if I keep trying to answer we could be at this forever.

**Oramin** · July 30, 2013, 17:38

Originally posted by Derakon

Oh my god you two just make out already.

Pretty sure he's not my type (since based on the name he's a 'he').

David:

Don't worry, I'll cut off the analysis soon enough since I do have other things to deal with; I'm just trying to make a point by presenting those two hypos. After that, I'll explain the point and then make sure you get the opportunity for the last word.

**DaviddesJ** · July 30, 2013, 21:42

Some games are designed to be played once only, and some games are designed to be played over and over again.

If you have a game with hidden information that is only supposed to be played once, and there's no point in replaying because once you've played through it you know the hidden information (e.g., the point of the game is to find locations, and once you know where they are then the game is uninteresting), then revealing the hidden information before you play would sap some of the point of the game.

On the other hand, if the game is designed and intended to be played many times, then it's expected that you will may know the map (from previous playings) and the game will still maintain its character. In that case, it would definitely make sense to have an option (or even an automatic choice) to reveal the map from the start, and it doesn't make any sense to call that "cheating". It's just giving you information that everyone can already have from previous playings. Some people might prefer to reveal information as they go, in their first playing, while others might prefer to just see it all from the beginning. Everyone should play as they want and there's no reason to call one approach "cheating".

If knowing the map is a big advantage, but you want to make the game replayable, then the best solution is to make the maps random rather than fixed. That way it can be different every time and hidden from the start.

I used to play multiplayer AOWSM, sometimes on fixed maps and sometimes on random maps. When we played on random maps, we would usually play with the map hidden from the start, and each player would have to explore to discover the map. When we played on fixed maps, we would generally expose the whole map to everyone from the start, so that some players don't get an advantage over others from knowing the map better. Exposing the map there is not "cheating", it's a balancing mechanism. To say that some players have the map exposed from the start, because they have played it before and it stays revealed for them, while others have to explore it from scratch, with no peeking, would seem unfair to me.

This is my best attempt to answer (one of) your hypotheticals. That's about as much effort as I care to invest in this. If you need to refine or elucidate or interpret your examples further, I suggest you at least make a new thread for them.

**Timo Pietilä** · July 31, 2013, 04:56

Originally posted by DaviddesJ

From the very beginning, one of the core principles of Angband was that everything in the game is open and public. It's easy to look up for yourself what monsters can do, how spells work, what various pieces of equipment do, how the time model works, etc., etc. You don't even have to interpret the source code, there are "spoiler" files that present all of this information as conveniently as possible.

That's not quite true. At beginning game made some things vague on purpose, like saving throw (heroic -> legendary where legendary was more than 100%), and files you refer didn't contain info about artifacts, that was part of the source and so on. No info about how much damage you do, you needed to calculate it yourself.

It's a lot more "open" now than it was at the beginning. What was open was coding the game, it was made easy for everyone to tweak their own copy at will so for coders it was "open". For non-coders not so much.

**krazyhades** · July 31, 2013, 05:28