V 3.5 now in feature freeze

[Oramin]

I've got all of the information about every monster's abilities. It's in the source code and spoiler files, I can just read it, this has always been true for the 20+ years I've been playing the game. The question is only about convenience. I am always going to have the same information, it's just a question of how many keystrokes it takes to consult it. Fewer keystrokes is better than more, that's my opinion. Making people do extra keystrokes to do something they are going to do anyway is an outdated concept and I'm glad we are moving beyond that in other areas.

Listen, you aren't going to change how I want to play and I'm not going to change how you want to play. I don't even want to try. Please stop trying to persuade me I should like what you like. I know what I like. Earning the right to use fewer keystrokes when playing, by going through some laborious process, isn't one of the things that I like.

If I'm a "cheater" for turning on full monster memory in my game, and I'm also a "cheater" for tabbing over to my browser window to look at spoilers during the game, then you're also a "cheater" for probing all of the monsters in one game and then consulting that monster memory in the next game. I think none of these are "cheating" (unlike, say, infinite lives). They just reflect different preferences about how to play.

Nope, nice try though. There's a distinction which I already explained.

You just don't want to accept the distinction because to do so would prevent you from getting what you want.


According to your point of view, the fact that I can edit the save file to max my stats means that I should be allowed to set an option in the game to give me max stats without actually earning it in the game and that I shouldn't be listed as a cheater for doing it. I mean, after all, it is just a matter of convenience.

Hell, I can probably get any item in the game just by playing long enough. But it would take a lot fewer keystrokes by just allowing an option to generate any item in the game. Convenience is the key, right, so that shouldn't be cheating either according to your theory.

As for why my probing all the monsters and consulting the memory in later games isn't the same, it is because I actually played the game to get the information which I could then use later.

Incidentally, I'm not trying to persuade to you like the fact that I suspect most people would consider your suggestion to be cheating; I'm trying to explain it to you why I suspect most people would consider it cheating.

Go ahead, keep trying to win an argument with a lawyer.

[Patashu]

Maybe a better comparison would be this: Should Nethack be shipped with a built-in list of spoilers, stats and statistics about absolutely everything, prompts before doing something stupid, automatic prompts to do unquestionably good yet obscure and spoilery things when the context is right, etc? It would still be a good, fun game but it would be a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT game going from spoiler-free to automatically spoiled.

[Oramin]

Hey, if David wants to make a variant where having complete information isn't considered cheating then I don't have a problem with it.

In the context of Vanilla, however, IIRC it has always been a part of the game that, within the context of the game, you don't start with complete information. You explore the dungeon, you identify items, and you learn about monsters by either fighting them or probing them.

[takkaria]

Hey, if David wants to make a variant where having complete information isn't considered cheating then I don't have a problem with it.

In the context of Vanilla, however, IIRC it has always been a part of the game that, within the context of the game, you don't start with complete information. You explore the dungeon, you identify items, and you learn about monsters by either fighting them or probing them.

Sure, but I think the point is that people have always had spoilers around as well - and they haven't been considered cheating - and also that in-game spoilers aren't really different from out of game spoilers. People used to use them all the time e.g. when info on what artifacts did was really hard to get to in-game.

[Oramin]

Sure, but I think the point is that people have always had spoilers around as well - and they haven't been considered cheating - and also that in-game spoilers aren't really different from out of game spoilers. People used to use them all the time e.g. when info on what artifacts did was really hard to get to in-game.

Yeah, but that's us having the spoilers and not the characters.

[Pete Mack]

Yeah, but that's us having the spoilers and not the characters.

OK, I have a compromise. Make "full monster knowledge" a birth option, but still keep track of "lore" in case the player wants to change.

Then, to satisfy your ID discovery urge, use something like Sil:
1. Bring back sticky curse.
2. Use "magic glyphs" for ID, so each class of object only needs ID once.
3. put back a few more "bad" potions.
4. Bring back "hidden" random capabilities, but include a glyph for it, so it only is fully IDed either through discovery or an "easy-know" object (or artifact) with the same glyph.

In short, I am really liking the Sil ID model! ... Except for the idiocy of "Perception" applying to fairly obvious glyphs.

[Timo Pietilä]

2. They have access to a fail-safe Recharging spell, at least for lower-leveled staves.

This brings to my mind something I thought a long time ago but then forgot. How about making some high-level spells not immediate, but more powerful. Spells that require a ritual of some kind (in game terms several player turns). For example Priest Alter Reality could be one of those spells. For mage mass banishment, and maybe also Recharge III? You can make more spells with that in mind. Combat spells could have clvl dependent turn rate like extra shot bows, maybe half-turn for clvl 25 mage MM, one and half for something like rift?

[DaviddesJ]

Maybe a better comparison would be this: Should Nethack be shipped with a built-in list of spoilers, stats and statistics about absolutely everything, prompts before doing something stupid, automatic prompts to do unquestionably good yet obscure and spoilery things when the context is right, etc? It would still be a good, fun game but it would be a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT game going from spoiler-free to automatically spoiled.

I think Nethack is a terrible game so almost any change would improve it. Certainly, yes, I wouldn't play it without reading the source to know how everything works. But you won't get me to play it even then. Angband is, intentionally, a very different kind of game.

Nethack, by its design, requires spoilers. What are you going to do, inscribe random eight-letter words on the floor until you happen to write "Elbereth"? Has anyone, in the history of the game, ever done that?

Coming back to Angband, I'm not trying to persuade anyone to play any particular way. I think almost everyone who has ever played Angband has consulted some spoilers. But people should all decide for themselves how much information they want to read and how much they want to discover. That's the way it has always been and always should be. The option to discover only monster information as you go is a great option for those who prefer that. But the reality is that many/most Angband players have always been comfortable with consulting and using spoilers, the number of people who think "looking at a spoiler" is like "editing your save file to make yourself superhuman" is vanishingly small.

[Patashu]

Nethack, by its design, requires spoilers. What are you going to do, inscribe random eight-letter words on the floor until you happen to write "Elbereth"? Has anyone, in the history of the game, ever done that?

Have you ever played Nethack? Many things in Nethack are almost impossible to figure out without Spoilers - This is not one of them.

1) There's a burned into the ground Elbereth at the end of the Sokoban branch
2) One of the oracle major consultancies outright tells you what Elbereth does
3) Five 'true' rumours mention Elbereth (accessible through fortune cookies of the right beatitude, minor consultations with the Oracle and applying/wielding certain quest artifacts)

What is spoilery, though, is using Elbereth effectively - there are a lot of variables to its use (such as whether you engrave with a weapon, your fingers, a wand, a soft gem, a hard gem, how many turns it takes, how likely it is to be scuffed, etc) and as a result you only see spoiled players use it powerfully.

[Timo Pietilä]

Have you ever played Nethack? Many things in Nethack are almost impossible to figure out without Spoilers

I have ascended few times in Nethack and I think almost all things you can figure out without spoilers, but it will take time to find all the weird things that you can do for example while confused. Angband is much more straightforward game.

You can't really compare the two, Angband is like Quake to Nethack Leisure Suit Larry.

[Antoine]

How about making some high-level spells not immediate, but more powerful. Spells that require a ritual of some kind (in game terms several player turns). For example Priest Alter Reality could be one of those spells. For mage mass banishment, and maybe also Recharge III?

Can't you get a similar effect by setting a very high failure rate?

A.

[Pete Mack]

Can't you get a similar effect by setting a very high failure rate?

Not really. But giving them an insanely high mana cost (like 100+) would do it. You can't use it as an escape, and you can't use it in a fight.

[eMeM]

I admit, I'm a cheater too. When I don't have info I always read things in files, internet or source code (max damage cap). I would vote for moving it from cheat to birth options. I think most of Angband players are long time players and should have all info available.

[PowerWyrm]

What's the point of having "cheat lore" option when you can get the info by simply opening a text file?

[PowerWyrm]

Yup! Here: https://github.com/angband/angband/b...er/changes.txt

I've looked at the complete list of changes and found these ones that have been mentioned in the commits but not in that list:

- Nerf GCV
- (Hopefully) fix the segfault bug when placing feeling tiles in the town
- Move all uses of in_bounds(_fully) over to using cave_in_bounds(_fully) instead
- Add a note when you hit 'i' with no inventory, instead of doing nothing
- Refactor teleport_player_level() to ensure it never misbehaves
- Turn on hp_changes_color by default
- Fix occasional infinite loop in store restocking algorithm
- Fix up the weird mimic crash by not deleting the monster along with the object it is mimicking -- instead just make the mimic visible
- Fix up store bugs
- Fix quark freeing bug
- Fix monster/mon-init.c memory free bug