V 3.5 now in feature freeze

[Timo Pietilä]

I'm not going to change it yet - I'd rather leave that until I can chat to fizzix about it.

For what it's worth I have a feeling that something is wrong for weapons specifically. Except Phial, Evenstar, Gorlim and Paurhach all my artifact findings have been weapons, and I have found 11 of those, including Zarcuthra at 1600' (dropped by Boldor) which AFAIK should be rather rare. Evenstar, Gorlim and Paur I found somewhere after 2000', Phial from vault at 1600'.

Or maybe it just feels wrong because there is rather strong imbalance between amount of weapons and rest of the artifacts.

[Timo Pietilä]

Crash bug in 438-gd81b48f. I think it has something to do with chaos vortex, but not sure. I had severe cuts status, grand master mystic nearby and chaos vortex breathed which caused game to crash (shimmering effect & hallucination = crash?)

Win7 64bit if that has any meaning. Could not repeat bug and restart worked nicely.

Lost an hour of game in level which had crown GV (and second try caused me to drop thru trapdoor in that vault, luckily at the last sector. Which was stupid because I had holy infusions and unbarring ways mapped at tab).

[Nomad]

I'm in the rather strange situation (for me at least) where I've squelched all non-artifact weapons at dlvl30. Firstly because I'm getting regular artifact weapons and secondly because I can't be bothered IDing all the egos when I've already got Maedhros, Narthanc, Nimthanc, Elvagil, Forasgil and a couple of others. Maybe Funt III has inherited his daddy's luck with artifacts, but I'm beginning to suspect this is not the case.

Meanwhile, I'm still playing randart games and consistently finding no more than one artefact in the first 40 levels. Guess I should try playing standarts for comparison...

Okay, just taking a stab at my first standart game now, and while I'm not getting quite such a rain of artefacts as you seem to be, by 1350' I've managed to find Paurhach, Turmil, Nimloth and the Battle Axe of Balli Stonehand. Definitely seems over-generous compared to the randart games I've been playing. (For what it's worth, though this is only based on a single game, my impression is that I'm also finding correspondingly fewer egos; I'm at 1550' now and I've still yet to come across any ego armour in the dungeon.)

ETA: Well, I finally found some armour of Resistance at 1700', but by that point I already had Arvedui from Khim's drop the level before.

[Estie]

Played a half troll warrior:

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=14730

1. I didnt notice anything out of the ordinary regarding artifact drop rate (randarts for me as usual), but Maggot gave me a dagger +2 attacks.

2. The poison issue didnt surface (thankfully), mostly because of me diving fast with my dagger and getting the resistance before many encounters with poisonous critters.

3. Monsters breathing chaos crash the game.

4. No charisma score makes nexus swap much less dangerous. The game has become easier!

[MattB]

4. No charisma score makes nexus swap much less dangerous. The game has become easier!

But it makes 1-up/1-down potions more perilous.

[Zyphyr]

For what it's worth I have a feeling that something is wrong for weapons specifically. Except Phial, Evenstar, Gorlim and Paurhach all my artifact findings have been weapons, and I have found 11 of those, including Zarcuthra at 1600' (dropped by Boldor) which AFAIK should be rather rare. Evenstar, Gorlim and Paur I found somewhere after 2000', Phial from vault at 1600'.

My anecdote : Currently at 2050, clvl 30. Phial (750), Elvagil(2050), Glamdring(1550), Gurthang(2050), Trident of Wrath (1100), Paurnen(1350), Thorongil(1350), Arvedui(1650), Hithlomir(1750), Thalketoth(1750)

[MattB]

My anecdote : Currently at 2050, clvl 30. Phial (750), Elvagil(2050), Glamdring(1550), Gurthang(2050), Trident of Wrath (1100), Paurnen(1350), Thorongil(1350), Arvedui(1650), Hithlomir(1750), Thalketoth(1750)

Wrath at dlvl22, nice!

[molybdenum]

Crash bug in 438-gd81b48f. I think it has something to do with chaos vortex, but not sure. I had severe cuts status, grand master mystic nearby and chaos vortex breathed which caused game to crash (shimmering effect & hallucination = crash?)

I had a segfault yesterday that I think was also related to a chaos vortex:

0x000000010004ab7e mon_clear_timed + 14
0x0000000100078fb0 project + 13312
0x0000000100049373 do_mon_spell + 563
0x000000010003574a make_attack_spell + 1642
0x0000000100035dfd process_monsters + 1437

Maybe related to the polymorph crash?

[Timo Pietilä]

Maybe related to the polymorph crash?

That's definitely possibility, since that chaos breath alone is not enough to cause crash (had that couple of times before crash).

[Timo Pietilä]

Bug with monsters that change color (multihued, chaos hounds etc.): one of the color accepted is black (or something really really dark), which means monster becomes practically invisible at that moment.

[Timo Pietilä]

Exactly. I seem to get into loop of close door - open door: expecting to give direction I bump to a door I just closed which in turn opens it. Rather annoying with breeders other side of the door.

Could this be added back into options? It starts to really bug me when keypresses required changes depending if there are a multiple choices or just one. Chests cause me headache (possibility that this changes is double for them).

Also as suggestion: "Display options" is not really descriptive for what options are under that, maybe "User Interface Options"?

[Nomad]

I added some more special rooms to the template file, taking the total up to 60. There's a few more non-rectangular shapes in there now, and I added some ammo dumps (little stashes of three piles of shots/arrows/bolts, which I hope isn't enough to unbalance anything).

These layouts are quite fun to design, so there's always a chance I'll end up creating even more before 3.5 is ready to go...

[Oramin]

Some games are designed to be played once only, and some games are designed to be played over and over again.

If you have a game with hidden information that is only supposed to be played once, and there's no point in replaying because once you've played through it you know the hidden information (e.g., the point of the game is to find locations, and once you know where they are then the game is uninteresting), then revealing the hidden information before you play would sap some of the point of the game.

On the other hand, if the game is designed and intended to be played many times, then it's expected that you will may know the map (from previous playings) and the game will still maintain its character. In that case, it would definitely make sense to have an option (or even an automatic choice) to reveal the map from the start, and it doesn't make any sense to call that "cheating". It's just giving you information that everyone can already have from previous playings. Some people might prefer to reveal information as they go, in their first playing, while others might prefer to just see it all from the beginning. Everyone should play as they want and there's no reason to call one approach "cheating".

If knowing the map is a big advantage, but you want to make the game replayable, then the best solution is to make the maps random rather than fixed. That way it can be different every time and hidden from the start.

I used to play multiplayer AOWSM, sometimes on fixed maps and sometimes on random maps. When we played on random maps, we would usually play with the map hidden from the start, and each player would have to explore to discover the map. When we played on fixed maps, we would generally expose the whole map to everyone from the start, so that some players don't get an advantage over others from knowing the map better. Exposing the map there is not "cheating", it's a balancing mechanism. To say that some players have the map exposed from the start, because they have played it before and it stays revealed for them, while others have to explore it from scratch, with no peeking, would seem unfair to me.

This is my best attempt to answer (one of) your hypotheticals. That's about as much effort as I care to invest in this. If you need to refine or elucidate or interpret your examples further, I suggest you at least make a new thread for them.

Ok, sorry about the delay and sorry about continuing this discussion (for those who don’t want it in this thread). The good news for you is that this will be my final post on the subject.

Anyway, David, let’s discuss the philosophy of game design.

Angband, as you know, is a “hardcore” game. You die, you start a new character. That’s part of the concept of the game. If you activate the in-game setting to have infinite lives (I’m assuming this is still an option - didn’t check), then you’re labeled a cheater by the game.

A game doesn’t have to be designed this way. Diablo II has two separate modes - Hardcore and Softcore. Ultima IV doesn’t even have a hardcore mode; you automatically get resurrected by Lord British if you die. If you have infinite lives in these games, then you aren’t cheating because the designers made the decision that it isn’t cheating.

When I start a character in Diablo II, I make the decision whether to play a Hardcore character or to have the convenience of a Softcore character. When I win the game, Hardcore and Softcore characters get different titles.

Now, suppose for a second that I have selected a Softcore character and manage to finish the game without dying a single time (which I have done several times). I could have won on Hardcore; should I be entitled to the Hardcore title? No, I shouldn’t be because I made the choice to have the convenience of infinite lives.

Now, as I’m sure you’re going to point out, the convenience of infinite lives isn’t the same thing as the convenience of the monster memory. Sure, that’s a valid point - but have you noticed that neither of the other games I mentioned have in-game monster memories? Yep, they have infinite lives but no in-game monster memories.

When Angband was designed, the Implementors (Blessings upon them), made a decision that a lot of information would be hidden in-game. For example, is there any real reason not to have full information in the game about the StandArts before you ever enter the dungeon?

The monster memory is a convenience and reward for playing the game. As players learn about the game, they get rewarded by the program conveniently keeping track of this information for them.

Every one of us who has won the game for the first time had to earn a complete monster memory; I see no legitimate reason to change that now.

Sure, it is denying experienced players like you the convenience of having it available because you don’t want to have the cheater flag enabled on a new character on a new machine. But, frankly, if you’re actually experienced, you should have a pretty good idea of what the monsters do. If you just installed a new copy of Angband on a new computer, is there a reason you can’t look at the online spoilers? For that matter, can’t you just setup a second Angband on the same computer with a different character and have that one with the complete monster memory?

Frankly, I’d prefer the devs to remove the monster memory entirely rather than have the cheater flag removed for unearned knowledge.

If the cheater flag bothers you so much, you know what to do about it. I didn’t deserve the Hardcore titles for my Softcore character even though my character didn’t die because I made the choice to play a Softcore character. People who choose to have the game generate a complete unearned monster memory don’t deserve to avoid the cheater label even if that (extremely) slightly inconveniences experienced players.

[fizzix]

I'm not going to change it yet - I'd rather leave that until I can chat to fizzix about it.

I might have some time to discuss this later this week. I'm in CA, so timing will likely be difficult.

I can also run some simple simulations also if they're needed for comparisons.

[DaviddesJ]

Now, as I’m sure you’re going to point out, the convenience of infinite lives isn’t the same thing as the convenience of the monster memory.

Infinite lives aren't a convenience, they fundamentally change the game. We have ample evidence about this. When you make it easy for people to just keep playing when they die, or revert to a recent save, they play the game very differently. A strategy and style of play that dies dozens of times before reaching the end becomes no big deal. Yet if you played "hardcore" with such a strategy your chance of ever winning would be almost exactly zero.

Monster memory doesn't change the game at all. People who want to know what the monsters can do, just look in the source or in the spoiler file or in their browser. It takes a few extra clicks, so it's an annoyance, but it's like deleting the run command and making everyone move every single step one at a time, or like getting rid of macros. The game isn't any different if you have to move one step at a time and you can't use macros, the things you can do are all exactly the same, the game is just more annoying to play.

Every one of us who has won the game for the first time had to earn a complete monster memory; I see no legitimate reason to change that now.

No, we just didn't. I never played Angband without looking up what the monsters can do, from the very beginning, sometime in the early 1990s. I always thought of that as the only way to play the game. My observation is that most Angband players also played in that same way.

If I really had no other way to learn what monsters could do than by encountering them, I never would have played Angband in the first place, because I don't enjoy that, I think it makes the game dumb. I don't have any problem with players who do enjoy playing that way, but the game was always completely public so that everyone could view the source, plus the spoiler files were just as available as the game itself. All of this information was out there so that people who wanted it could use it.

When I happened to think of playing Angband again, some months ago, I discovered that many improvements had been made to the game, and one of the biggest of those was the option to have all of the monster data immediately accessible and automatically displayed through the monster memory! Fabulous improvement!

If you just installed a new copy of Angband on a new computer, is there a reason you can’t look at the online spoilers?

Of course. I can and I do. Like so many others. I don't need to do it for monsters, because of complete monster memory, but I do it for other things.

If the cheater flag bothers you so much, you know what to do about it. I didn’t deserve the Hardcore titles for my Softcore character even though my character didn’t die because I made the choice to play a Softcore character. People who choose to have the game generate a complete unearned monster memory don’t deserve to avoid the cheater label even if that (extremely) slightly inconveniences experienced players.

It doesn't bother me at all. People will make one decision or the other, and the game will go on. Either I'll play the game the way it is or I'll just modify the code. Easy enough either way. But neither alternative will keep me from also making the case for making the game better. You were the one who asked me to make my argument, remember? (Practically demanded it.)

P.S. You also never explained at all what your "public map" analogy has to do with anything. After demanding my response, it seems that you ignored it because it actually undermines your argument.