Angband 4.2.4

[Ingwe Ingweron]

...For the latter, if you really insist on there being that bad device skill, it could be automated like digging; so the game retries without forcing the player to input action - react - input - react _all the time_....

I don't really like this proposed solution, as it could be very problematic in a combat situation. Failing the device, I don't want my @ to keep trying ad infinitum while some monster is breathing down @'s neck. @ should be able to switch tactics in the heat of the battle, rather than mindlessly trying to repeat an action that didn't work immediately.

[ewert]

I don't really like this proposed solution, as it could be very problematic in a combat situation. Failing the device, I don't want my @ to keep trying ad infinitum while some monster is breathing down @'s neck. @ should be able to switch tactics in the heat of the battle, rather than mindlessly trying to repeat an action that didn't work immediately.

Digging already disturbs the repeat if monsters do stuff. The same mechanic could/should be used for devices.

I agree with the idea that failing devices when there is no disturbances around the character is a quality of life issue rather than a tactical issue, and I would be very happy to have repeat-attempt-until-success-or-disturbed be the mechanic.

[Estie]

I don't really like this proposed solution, as it could be very problematic in a combat situation. Failing the device, I don't want my @ to keep trying ad infinitum while some monster is breathing down @'s neck. @ should be able to switch tactics in the heat of the battle, rather than mindlessly trying to repeat an action that didn't work immediately.

I completely agree, and have pointed out above that I dont like it either. But it would still be _much_ better than the current situation.

As ewert pointed out, it wouldnt be as bad as you make it to be - youd be disturbed by the same things that disturb your digging and you could set the # of attempts lower than for digging, maybe 10 or 20.

[Egavactip]

It used to be that, as a lowish level warrior, I'd love getting a set of dragon scale armor or a ring of ice-type item. Now I generally just ignore them because I can't ever get them to activate. Ditto for a number of other magic items. They are just useless hunks of junk for warriors, except possibly long past the time when they can be useful to warriors. I think it's stupid to be able to have a snowball's chance in hell of activating an item when you need it. A larger chance of failure than for other classes is fine, but what I've been experiencing is ridiculous. Like having to activate a Rod of Magic Mapping 10 times to get it to work. Like being totally unable to use a Rod of Speed in combat because you will die before getting it to activate (you can only use it if you spend time time prior to combat trying to get it to activate, then rush into combat).

Maybe there should be an anti-magic character class like a Barbarian and all this stuff can be sloughed off on it, but it's been pretty frustrating for someone like me who usually plays warriors.

[Selkie]

Literally the only class I never play is a warrior. I'm enjoying all the balance whines with a single malt, a pipe and a roaring fire at my toes. I'm only surprised a warrior can spell rod, let alone activate it

[Nick]

I've given the device use fail rate issue some thought, and come to the conclusion that adjusting the formula to allow more range was only half the job. The other thing that needs doing is adjusting individual items so they have the appropriate difficulty.

Historically an item's level (which determines failure rate) was tied to the depth it appeared in the dungeon, but now it mostly affects failure and recharging. So the question is, which items are the wrong level?

I'm inclined to say that DSM should clearly be lower level, some utility rods and the elemental rings probably should be, and there are probably some things which are actually too easy (for example, rods of Treasure Location are level 5, the lowest in the game).

I think probably the best starting point is warriors, who have the worst device skill and arguably the greatest overall need for devices (at least for utility). I'm inclined to think that attack rods should be high level, utilities like Recall and Illumination low level, and things like Healing and Speed there are arguments both ways.

Opinions please

[Estie]

Whether thats a good solution depends on the specific values you chose; I dont see anything wrong with it in principle.

I would advocate a curve that at some point gets to <10% activation chance for all utility items; so maybe, treasure location at lvl 5 and rod of speed at lvl 45 or so, with intelligence score having little impact. That is _not_ high fail rate by any means; if high fail rate is desired, and I am not at all advocating against it, then I would want to see a different solution that doesnt end up testing the players device skills (key pressing).

[malcontent]

Sounds like a good idea to me. The current situation is a bit appalling at times.

[Pete Mack]

Nick--just use half depth for worn equipment difficulty. It makes sense thematically, too.

[Nick]

I would advocate a curve that at some point gets to <10% activation chance for all utility items; so maybe, treasure location at lvl 5 and rod of speed at lvl 45 or so, with intelligence score having little impact. That is _not_ high fail rate by any means; if high fail rate is desired, and I am not at all advocating against it, then I would want to see a different solution that doesnt end up testing the players device skills (key pressing).

So two things:

1. What do we regard as utility items for this? Recall clearly is and Fire Balls clearly isn't, but what about Hold Monster, or Teleport Other?
2. It will be fairly easy to make wands, staffs, rods and worn items that activate just repeat until success - is there any down-side to this?

Note that INT currently has little impact anyway - the maximum possible added to device skill is 13, compared to a CL50 device skill for a warrior of 55. Note also that I think many of the current device levels are poorly chosen - some need reducing, some need increasing - and I'd like some opinions on the detail of that.

So more than two things, I guess

[Estie]

Well if you make 3 classes, 1. easy 2. medium and 3. hard, the allocation for warriors could be something like:

1. all kinds of detection; DSM; recall;

2. curing/healing; elemental rings; tele/tele other; all artifact activatons (for simplicity, but feel free to go through all of them individually....)

3. all offensive activations not listed before, banishment

I put recall in 1 because you said so; it would be more fitting in 2 along with the other translocations thematically.

For paladin, you could use warrior allocation except put curing/healing in 1.

Mage: everything 1. except DSM 2. :P
Priest: everything 1. except offensive stuff in 2.;
Rogue: everything 1.
Ranger: as palading except 3. moved to 2.
Druid: as priest;
BG: offense in 1., otherwise like warrior
Necro: as mage except cure/heal in 2.

Notes:

- This would be on top of a general, class dependent skill level that is highest for mage and lowest for warrior;

- 3. only exists to prevent warrior/paladin from casting fireballs; maybe simplify by removing 3. ?



Is this about what you intended ?

The downsides for auto-repeating activations would be the same as for digging; I cant remember a case where I wanted to dig 1 turn and not have auto-repeat trigger. I would be happy if it was implemented.

Edit: one problem with auto-repeating activations that occured to me: if you target with an aoe, you might want to retarget instead of repeating. So maybe not make autorepeat for damage spells ?

[Nick]

Is this about what you intended ?

Yes, this is very helpful; anyone else with opinions, please use Estie's suggestions as a starting point.

The downsides for auto-repeating activations would be the same as for digging; I cant remember a case where I wanted to dig 1 turn and not have auto-repeat trigger. I would be happy if it was implemented.

Edit: one problem with auto-repeating activations that occured to me: if you target with an aoe, you might want to retarget instead of repeating. So maybe not make autorepeat for damage spells ?

My plan was to have repeat until it succeeds, but I see your point about attacks (and TO, for that matter). Probably it would be OK if it's interrupted by visible monster movement, though.

[Sphara]

Estie's suggestion, combined with auto-repeating rods of curing/magic mapping, would definitely get a thumb up from me. I also like Pete's idea of worn items having easier activation, but I don't know if we can have all of these three

[Nick]

Estie's suggestion, combined with auto-repeating rods of curing/magic mapping, would definitely get a thumb up from me. I also like Pete's idea of worn items having easier activation, but I don't know if we can have all of these three

Don't see why not. There's no need to make worn items use half the level, though - they can just all have their levels changed, as it has no effect on anything else.

[backwardsEric]

Don't see why not. There's no need to make worn items use half the level, though - they can just all have their levels changed, as it has no effect on anything else.

As used in artifact.txt for "special" artifacts, doesn't it also influence an out-of-depth check in artifact generation? That out-of-depth check could be changed to use the minimum allocation depth, like make_artifact() uses, to avoid that.