Sil Builds/Challenges/Concepts/Stupid-Ascension-Tricks

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Pacifists

I just had another pacifist at 800ft. - if enemies are in the way - putting them to sleep is nice and all, but how can I wake them up without risking being destroyed by Kemenraukos and similarly annoying creatures? (Trumpet in a distant to wake up didn't work out so well, Kemenrauko came straight across the map towards me.) Or should I just leave the floor? Or maybe some middling noise? Another song other than silence and lorien maybe?

Pacifists are great fun. When I started with stealth not with listen, I never got far with such attempts.

@clouded: Yes I doubt it will work with this stats (you roll against 25 will to put Morgoth to sleep afaik).

[half]

For minimal xp (and turncount) this ascension death of mine is about as low as you could go. I don't believe it's feasable to win with this little xp after 1.0.2 however, both vanish requiring higher stealth (going for as low a turncount as possible, my pacifists do not get 20+ stealth so I don't even take it) and everything becoming more perceptive after taking a sil means that once you start going up, a vampire lord will spot you at some point and then you just die.

Maybe ultra low xp/turncount is possible still with some very unbalanced song bias, but no one has established a proper build for that. I won stealth/song only but that requires a fairly high turncount.

This seems to indicate that our balancing has worked in this area.

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Lightless challenge

Did you ever wondered how the enemies didn't notice you despite light level 5? The answer is, the lightless challenge. I am trying a lightless Finarfin (4 dex, 3 con, 6 gra). Listen and exploiting the light of my enemies (so I shouldn't make them sleepy) will be the key. It won't be strictly pacifist, but I guess I avoid fighting as much as I can.

[half]

Did you ever wondered how the enemies didn't notice you despite light level 5? The answer is, the lightless challenge. I am trying a lightless Finarfin (4 dex, 3 con, 6 gra). Listen and exploiting the light of my enemies (so I shouldn't make them sleepy) will be the key. It won't be strictly pacifist, but I guess I avoid fighting as much as I can.

Sounds intriguing. Do let us know how you fare.

We ended up making light not affect stealth on the grounds that it would be too annoying for the player if it did, even though there is a pretty huge suspension of disbelief.

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Sounds intriguing. Do let us know how you fare.

We ended up making light not affect stealth on the grounds that it would be too annoying for the player if it did, even though there is a pretty huge suspension of disbelief.

Yes, I know. It would be horrible. There are, however, modifiers when you are in LoS of your opponents (and vanishing depends on being out of sight afaik) so darkness has some benefits for stealth. Searching is quite neat as well, 9 tiles in one turn (I might even be able to find some things and stairs in not completely horrible turncount ). 400ft. now and everything is fine so far (8 pts. in stealth and perception w/ the 4 obvious abilities, 2 in will for molds).

[half]

Yes, I know. It would be horrible. There are, however, modifiers when you are in LoS of your opponents (and vanishing depends on being out of sight afaik) so darkness has some benefits for stealth. Searching is quite neat as well, 9 tiles in one turn (I might even be able to find some things and stairs in not completely horrible turncount ). 400ft. now and everything is fine so far (8 pts. in stealth and perception w/ the 4 obvious abilities, 2 in will for molds).

There are some other neat benefits too. @s and Gs need light to see (which is why they carry light), so they get their attack rolls halved if you are in darkness (archers!) and get their evasion rolls halved too (mainly relevant if you are an archer, but also if you are a badass shadow-cloaked, net darkness producer in melee).

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Celebrist and Melkor are pretty damned good too.

Isn't Celebrist the CON-1 glaive?

[Philip]

Maybe he means Gaurin, with sharpness.

[debo]

Maybe he means Gaurin, with sharpness.

Celebrist also gives +1 Dex (and free action!), and is (+0,2d10) [+3] (!)

It's like someone stuck the shortsword of galadriel at the end of a very heavy pole!

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Celebrist also gives +1 Dex (and free action!), and is (+0,2d10) [+3] (!)

It's like someone stuck the shortsword of galadriel at the end of a very heavy pole!

Oh, I wasn't aware of the +3. That's great when you combine flanking with polearms and build for high evasion.

[debo]

Oh, I wasn't aware of the +3. That's great when you combine flanking with polearms and build for high evasion.

Never mind, it got nerfed quite hard since the last time I ever saw it. Just checked the 1.1.1. artefact file, it's (-1,2d9) [+2] now. The conversion from halberds -> glaives seems to have left this one in the dust

[+2] is still OK but not as clearly OP anymore It's also same depth and rarity as Sirion and I'd have to say that Sirion is just all-around better unless you've already somehow bought both the abilities it comes with...

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My no-light challenge character (Finarfin) got to 650 ft. there I got jumped by newly spawned cats in a corridor and died. (Natardo on the ladder.) However, the feel until then was that no-light might be less of a challenge than I first thought. It may in fact be a viable option for pacifists in general to remove lightsources (or swap them in and out) as soon as they get their ears tuned (Listen), darkness has huge benefits for stealth (disguise halves modifiers when in line of sight, darkness removes them completely!). Long turning corridors, however, can be even more of a deathtrap than for regular pacifists. I had no darkness items with this character, so couldn't produce darkness - there are a lot of items that have a serious downside with other builds (shadow cloaks, sword of shadows) that would really "shine" with this build.

I still wonder about grotesques and no-light. Maybe if you add Song of Mastery that would last you at least until the next stair?

In the opposite direction:

Has anyone tried to maximize the moral effects of light by shining very bright as a character combined maybe with majesty? (4 on lightsource, 2 on the hands, 1 on amulet, 1 on crown, 1 on armour (?) - are there shining cloaks? boots? gloves? add a floor lamp for good measure), add song of trees and inner light to the mix (maybe elbereth for the tough ones) and mastery for those who don't want to flee. I wish you could add more than 1 light to an artefact, though. Aim would be to make a stealthless yet pacifist char

[Scatha]

Interesting idea. Note though that not all enemies fear light (generally the list is something like orcs, trolls, undead and darkness-creating monsters).

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Interesting idea. Note though that not all enemies fear light (generally the list is something like orcs, trolls, undead and darkness-creating monsters).

Guess you would need Song of Elbereth (easterlings, rauko) and/or Song of Mastery (wolves, trolls) as well then.

I realized recently that vampires don't count as undead for weapons of final rest - if I am not mistaken completely - do they for light?

P.S. Rage + no-light has some interesting effect. You completely lose your map awareness (as you don't see anything directly) even the wall next to you.

[half]

(disguise halves modifiers when in line of sight, darkness removes them completely!)

I've just double checked this and darkness is not relevant to the line of sight check. They still have LOS on you if you are in darkness (and you have LOS on them even if you can't see them). This is because most monsters are able to see in the dark. Technically @s and Gs should need you to be lit too. I might add that in, but it is not there at the moment. I'm impressed you survived as well as you did, because this wasn't helping you!