Sil Builds/Challenges/Concepts/Stupid-Ascension-Tricks

[debo]

Also good to know -- Cruel Blow doesn't just confuse a monster, it causes a morale penalty (-20) in "onlooking friends"

Mind you I'm looking at older source, this may have changed in 1.1.1

[Scatha]

What is the weapon weight on your fist? Is it stupidly easy to crit?

Actually this used to be the case, a long way back in testing! It turned out it was a very good assassination method (we also had a different critical rule then, going up with 3+weight instead of 7+weight, but a bigger threshold for the first critical). This wasn't the flavour we wanted to encourage, hence I'm afraid the penalty you see. I wonder if it could safely be reverted with the new rule. Being unarmed is certainly meant to be very bad, but at the moment it could almost be that you can't attack.

[half]

Also good to know -- Cruel Blow doesn't just confuse a monster, it causes a morale penalty (-20) in "onlooking friends"

Mind you I'm looking at older source, this may have changed in 1.1.1

That's right. Using slaying weapons does the same. I think this is all detailed in the manual.

[HallucinationMushroom]

I'm playing a new challenge, that maybe some of you might like to try as well.
I'm entering debug-mode and giving my character a set value of xp to spend, but he cannot ever get any more. It's sort of a minimum experience challenge, but mainly this idea stems from the suspension-of-disbelief that a 4,000 year old elf suddenly gains all of these new powers/abilities over the course of a day, or days in Angband. I love the character build engine in Sil, and I'm not criticizing the gameplay, I just simply think a completed character at the start of the adventure might be fun and enlightening. Perhaps a hardcore backwards character creation that eliminates a lot of the early game survival roadblocks that make some builds too difficult, at the cost of max experience.
I am trying right now with 45,000xp, roughly half of what I expect by throne room, and I am also playing ironman for kicks.

Thoughts? Anybody else want to try with me? It's neat deciding what to buy at various price-points. I first thought I would use 60,000, but it looks like too much once I started burning the points. I'll post the character (if the game will let me?, never posted a debug before I don't think) if I manage to do well, or if anybody wants to see my skill selections.

[HallucinationMushroom]

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=14077

Fun! I came close to winning on my very first try. Going to make some minor changes to my build and try again.

[bron]

I tried this 45,000 xp challenge (http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=14117).
I got a lot further than I expected to. It certainly seems winnable. I think the only real question is how fast you can afford to descend: the "equipment vs. turncount" dilemma.

[HallucinationMushroom]

Cool. I made a couple more of these with some crazy distributions and had quite a bit of fun. I think I could conceievably reverse engineer some of my more realistic builds, but taking advantage of just racking up melee and evasion to ridiculous heights might actually offer a better chance at winning. Or, maybe even stealth or song or something, I dunno.

I made a melee/evasion heavy, with a little will, and took every down staircase as soon as I found it and still hanging tough at 900'. I haven't had a chance to play much lately, but I might take a go at only melee.

[debo]

This 45K xp thing sounds like it would only really be a challenge if you went ironman. One of the trickiest parts of Sil IMO is conserving good consumables when you first start getting them around 400' where your equipment and skills are kinda shit. With 45K xp you should be pretty strong until 700'-800', which kinda lets you milk the first 75% of the game really hard no?

Of course I haven't tried it, so MMMV

[HallucinationMushroom]

That's probably true about the ironman thing. It's neat to me that 45,000xp could be enough to win since I often find myself looking forward to 90,000xp or so. After playing a few times like this I think challenge is too strong a word. Perhaps, mode? You're right old Debo, I don't think it's necessarily that hard. It's useful as a trim-the-fat tool, perhaps, or imagining scenarios that are probably impossible outside of taking a lump sum of experience up front. One of my first, and extremely doomed early character builds, was a dwarf who made an artifact cold branded spear at the first forge. Doesn't work (and is now too expensive in this version anyway). However, now I could try it again, and even though it might not be viable in a real game, getting over the xp and whole, you-can't-survive-this-start, is fun. And, it's just something I was messing with. You could make it 40,000 max, or 30,000 xp, or perhaps just boost initial starting xp by some set amount, just to see what happens.

This is actually what's happened to my path of exile character. He got a complete respec when they changed their massive skill tree... and now I have 71 points to place for my level 58 barb. It's interesting to think I can make something that would have been rather squishy for the first 40 levels for late game power, and not even have to suffer the squishy parts.

[Psi]

Yeah, like that! I've killed Morgy with a digger in this game, the mattock, but certainly not the shovel.

Considering the shovel in all serious though: If you had a really good smith, you could make a poison and fire branded shovel, at a ludicrous cost of around 58. So, 4d2. Let's say you have power (4d3), can achieve 9 strength through native strength and herb and potion (4d12), have momentum and 4 sources of extra damage, say from damage rings and maybe an artifact glove the kind that Psi makes that nets you +1 Str and +1 Damage (4d16), take rapid attack (4d13x2) and have song of slaying in the upper teens, kill everything at the throne room and get a really high melee bonus (+40 x2 4d12). Unfortunately, you cannot dual wield shovels, and sharpness doesn't apply to shovels, but this might to be enough to kill Morgoth.

This is actually the kind of stuff I was wanting to talk about here, weird-oddball stuff, so thanks! I still think about my ditchdigger character now and again. I should have been patient and hoarded more healing, but, it just didn't feel right... I was ready for the big fight. If I had gone against my gut, I probably would've died scumming for potions and that would've sucked.

Decided to give it a go... Gravedigger

[HallucinationMushroom]

Yesssssssss!

[bron]

Gravedigger

It was really amusing to me to read this, since I didn't understand it at first and it gradually unfolded before me as I looked at it more closely:

"Humm .. must have been a heckofa shovel, let's look .. well, that's good certainly, but only one brand and two extra damage sides; doesn't seem like enough .. he's got Power and Rapid Attack .. a couple of +Damage rings .. wow, a lot of this equipment has +Grace on it. Wonder why? I suppose it helps with Smithing but ... uh .. humm .. those "Last Messages" don't make sense .. I guess Carcharoth just missed all the time? .. no, that's not it, I'd see a message that he missed .. he's not acting at all? how .. well, I guess I see the guy is singing Majesty but that shouldn't stop Carcharoth; I mean his Song is only .. 43??!!? .. WITH VOICE OVER 1500?!?!? ... he was probably signing continuously, with all of Angband cowering before him."

And now suddenly I have a vision of poor, helpless, little Carcharoth whining like a sick puppy in the corner while you methodically beat his brains in with a shovel.

Well played, sir. Well played. Did Morgoth even manage to fight back, or did he just lay there cringing in fear like everything else?

[Psi]

Well played, sir. Well played. Did Morgoth even manage to fight back, or did he just lay there cringing in fear like everything else?

Thanks! The song is mastery, so rather than a fear based attack it is more domination of their will. Still, same result. Morgoth never made a move against me - from what Scatha has posted elsewhere I believe 40 song is enough for Morgoth to never act when adjacent to you.

The rather odd thing though, is that despite them not being able to move when under my mastery they can still dodge my blows all too easily! Carcharoth was damn hard to hit!

[Thraalbee]

I believe it is d20 plus Song vs d20 plus Will. Max monster Will is close to 20 (23 iirc) and V has 20. But that is only at 1 distance, song power is lower over distance. But don't use the bow at point blank! they will get the opportunity attack even if you sing Mastery.

[Psi]

V's will increases once his crown falls and Mastery is (song-5). I thought the only d20 rolls were in combat? Presumably these are d10 to give the magic 40.