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  • CyclopsSlayer
    Swordsman
    • Feb 2009
    • 389

    Originally posted by Mocht
    Also, the unpopularity of virtues was a factor in Chris's departure
    The opacity of the Virtues led to their lack of popularity.
    It was like getting a new car with no manual. Sure you can drive it fine, but learning how to use the back-up camera and auto-parking features was left to random chance and trial and error.

    Comment

    • Derakon
      Prophet
      • Dec 2009
      • 9022

      Not having played the game in ages, my impressions from conversation here are basically that:

      * You have to follow some fairly convoluted conducts if you want to control your virtue scores.
      * Virtues are almost all stick, no carrot. That is, you get penalties for having virtue scores out of line with your class, but no bonuses for adhering to them. Consequently anyone who turns virtues off is automatically stronger than a virtue-following player.
      * They are as mentioned nearly entirely opaque; what affects virtues is not well-communicated to the player.

      So you have a system that periodically thwacks you with a stick for making incorrect decisions, without giving you prompt or detailed enough feedback to know what you did wrong. It's certainly a very old-school approach to game design. Ultima 4 had a very similar virtue system (and is almost certainly the inspiration, directly or otherwise, for this virtue system). The main difference is that the virtue system was a core aspect of the game; you couldn't remove it without the game just not really making sense any more.

      Comment

      • Sideways
        Knight
        • Nov 2008
        • 896

        Originally posted by Derakon
        Not having played the game in ages, my impressions from conversation here are basically that:

        * You have to follow some fairly convoluted conducts if you want to control your virtue scores.
        * Virtues are almost all stick, no carrot. That is, you get penalties for having virtue scores out of line with your class, but no bonuses for adhering to them. Consequently anyone who turns virtues off is automatically stronger than a virtue-following player.
        * They are as mentioned nearly entirely opaque; what affects virtues is not well-communicated to the player.

        So you have a system that periodically thwacks you with a stick for making incorrect decisions, without giving you prompt or detailed enough feedback to know what you did wrong.
        All of which is why virtues are off by default and you have to actively turn them on if you want to play with them

        (There is in fact a fair bit of carrot to virtues, though, it's just that people don't know where the carrot is.)
        The Complainer worries about the lack of activity here these days.

        Comment

        • CyclopsSlayer
          Swordsman
          • Feb 2009
          • 389

          Originally posted by Derakon
          It's certainly a very old-school approach to game design. Ultima 4 had a very similar virtue system (and is almost certainly the inspiration, directly or otherwise, for this virtue system). The main difference is that the virtue system was a core aspect of the game; you couldn't remove it without the game just not really making sense any more.
          I was thinking that they felt similar to Ultima IV. The Virtues were what made me give up on Ultima IV, one action would hurt you a lot, and you needed many countering moves to repair it. Again it wasn't clear at first why you wanted or needed one aspect. Only by hindsight was it even clear that you basically needed to know the game's endings in advance to play properly.

          Comment

          • MITZE
            Swordsman
            • Jan 2017
            • 292

            virtue talk
            I started thinking last night about code-diving to see what all's affected by virtues—I didn't know about the better loot quality until Mocht mentioning it prompted me to look, for instance.

            Would people on here be interested in anything I find in regards to that?
            Everything you need to know about my roguelike playstyle:

            I took nearly two years to win with a single character in PosChengband.

            Comment

            • CyclopsSlayer
              Swordsman
              • Feb 2009
              • 389

              Originally posted by MITZE
              I started thinking last night about code-diving to see what all's affected by virtues—I didn't know about the better loot quality until Mocht mentioning it prompted me to look, for instance.

              Would people on here be interested in anything I find in regards to that?
              I would. A Dummies Guide to Virtues could prompt me to turn them on once again.

              Comment

              • Mocht
                Rookie
                • Mar 2015
                • 20

                Originally posted by MITZE
                I started thinking last night about code-diving to see what all's affected by virtues ...Would people on here be interested in anything I find in regards to that?
                I would
                (10 character min)

                Comment

                • Mocht
                  Rookie
                  • Mar 2015
                  • 20

                  Originally posted by MITZE
                  I started thinking last night about code-diving to see what all's affected by virtues ... Would people on here be interested in anything I find in regards to that?
                  In a helpfile on white auras Chris said that there is another effect, that some characters are luckier than others
                  I assume this means that at creation each character is given some kind of immutable luck modifier
                  I would be interested if your investigations shed light on that or on other obscure mechanics

                  Comment

                  • HugoVirtuoso
                    Veteran
                    • Jan 2012
                    • 1237

                    MITZE - show us what you've found on oook and also on angband.live (some folks over there are not oook.cz regulars)
                    My best try at PosChengband 7.0.0's nightmare-mode on Angband.live:
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwAR0WOphUA

                    If I'm offline I'm probably in the middle of maintaining Gentoo or something-Linux or other.

                    As of February 18th, 2022, my YouTube username is MidgardVirtuoso

                    Comment

                    • wobbly
                      Prophet
                      • May 2012
                      • 2627

                      Originally posted by Mocht
                      In a helpfile on white auras Chris said that there is another effect, that some characters are luckier than others
                      I assume this means that at creation each character is given some kind of immutable luck modifier
                      I would be interested if your investigations shed light on that or on other obscure mechanics
                      If you look in object2.c there's a bonus for VIRTUE_CHANCE. Not sure if that was what he is talking about.

                      Comment

                      • CyclopsSlayer
                        Swordsman
                        • Feb 2009
                        • 389

                        Luck, makes me wonder...

                        A few times I have chosen 'Lucky' personality and found the character to be anything but. Maybe RNG hate, maybe a hidden stat, maybe just confirmation bias.

                        Comment

                        • Mocht
                          Rookie
                          • Mar 2015
                          • 20

                          Originally posted by CyclopsSlayer
                          Luck, makes me wonder...

                          A few times I have chosen 'Lucky' personality and found the character to be anything but. Maybe RNG hate, maybe a hidden stat, maybe just confirmation bias.
                          The white aura, I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes with respect to drops, but I know the black aura makes a big difference

                          Comment

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