A minimal band

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  • Antoine
    Ironband/Quickband Maintainer
    • Nov 2007
    • 1010

    A minimal band

    Hi

    In a previous thread (http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=5165) I set out a manifesto for an Angband variant with sparse, minimalistic content and an improved UI.

    That thread turned into a UI discussion and I've now decided to step out of the UI workplan (which is being handled by much more capable people) and try to implement only the gameplay aspects of my manifesto. These were:

    - Less Stuff (fewer races, classes, monsters, uniques, items, egos, artifacts, etc etc)
    - Difficult game, with key consumables (including means of detection, escape and healing) being limited, some resistance holes being very hard to plug given the limited equipment selection, some monsters being very hard to defeat in-depth, and the risk of instadeath always awaiting the incautious player.
    - Game to take about as long to complete as modern Vanilla, with the end bosses being Sauron and Morgoth (at DL 49/50 respectively)

    I will follow up with a series of (long) posts setting out my first cut at the design (done over the Xmas holidays). Any feedback welcome (but I suggest you may like to read the entire series of posts before commenting, as some design decisions may then make more sense).

    If my posts are felt to be too long/annoying I will be happy to set up a dev blog somewhere else. Just let me know.

    A.
    Last edited by Antoine; January 8, 2012, 08:05.
    Ironband - http://angband.oook.cz/ironband/
  • Antoine
    Ironband/Quickband Maintainer
    • Nov 2007
    • 1010

    #2
    Post #1 - Monsters

    My plan is to work from a current version of NPP (if the NPP devs are happy with that), with various changes. One of the first things I've done is to prune the NPP monster list heavily. The result is below.

    The list is much shorter than in NPP or V but still too long to comply with my manifesto (I'd like to get down to a total of 100 critters; currently I have 38 uniques and 86 other monsters).

    You'll notice some kinds of monsters are missing entirely (for instance: mimics, early stat-draining ghosts, early melee confusers). You'll also notice the top-end monsters are less tough than in NPP. The reasons should become clear after a few more posts.

    Uniques

    Code:
    1  Grip
    2  Smeagol
    3  Bullroarer
    4  Lagduf
    5  Wormtongue
    6  Golfimbul
    7  Ulfast (or replacement from Quick)
    8  Ufthak
    9  Nar
    10 Shagrat
    11 Ugluk (or replacement from Quick)
    12 Azog
    13 Angamaite (or replacement from Quick)
    14 Uldor
    15 Mim
    16 Lokkak (rebranded?)
    17 Maglor
    18 Uvatha (rebranded?)
    20 Maedhros
    22 Adunaphel (rebranded?)
    24 Scatha
    26 Eol
    28 Smaug
    30 Hoarmurath (rebranded? powered-down, too)
    32 Mouth of Sauron
    34 Balrog of Moria (considerably boosted)
    36 Thuringwethil
    38 Glaurung
    40 Saruman
    42 Atlas (rebrand as a Storm Giant chieftain? Apart from Lokkak, he is the only unTolkienesque unique now)
    43 Maeglin
    44 Witch-King
    45 Carcharoth
    46 Ancalagon
    47 Gothmog
    48 Ungoliant
    49 Sauron (can be weaker than in current NPP)
    50 Morgoth (ditto)
    Non-uniques
    Code:
    1  Floating eye
       Jackal
       Large snake  	[was: large yellow snake]
       Giant ant 		[was: giant black ant]
       Kobold
    2  Thief  		[was: scruffy-looking hobbit]
       Poltergeist
       Kobold shaman
       Kobold archer
       Black naga
    3  Goblin 		[was: snaga]
       Rattlesnake
       Green naga
    4  Scorpion  		[was: wood spider] 
       Orc  		[was: hill orc] 
       Red naga
    5  White dragon  	[a bit tougher than current 'baby']
       Dark elf	 	[was: dark elven mage]
       Giant fly		[was: giant fruit fly]
    6  Priest  		[with heal-others spell from Quick]
       Black orc
       Crebain
    7  Black dragon 
       Illusionist
       Ochre jelly
    8  Giant spider		[was: mirkwood spider]
       Homunculus
       Uruk
    9  Green dragon
       Umber hulk
       Frozen spirit  	[from Quick]
    10 Ranger
       Quythulg spawn  	[was: quythulg]
       Chimaera  		[with beefed-up breath]
    11 Blue dragon  	[like current "young"]
       Iron golem
       Wight  		[was: forest wight. Add a Dex-draining attack]
    12 Ogre 		[was: cave ogre]
       Rogue 		[was: master rogue]
       Ghoul
    13 Bronze dragon
       Mage
       Vampire
    14 Mind flayer
       Frost giant
       Colbran
    15 Red dragon  		[between current "young" and "mature"]
       Fire giant
       Ghost
    16 Mercury golem  	[from Quick]
       Earth elemental
       Air elemental
    17 Gold dragon  	[like current "mature"]
       Troll  		[was: cave troll]
       Chaos adept  	[from Quick]
    18 Stone golem  	[was: colossus]
       Giant roc  		[dial up speed a bit?]
    19 Chromatic dragon  	[somewhere carefully selected between "mature" and "ancient". Characters are unlikely to have RPois at this point]
       Vrock
    20 Dread  		[the group version]
       Sorcerer  		[ease off on the speed a bit]
    21 White wyrm  		[like current "ancient"]
       Hezrou
    22 Berserker
       Lich  		[was: master lich]
    23 Marilith
       Quythulg  		[can summon demons/dragons/undead]
    24 Black wyrm
    25 Antediluvian  	[was: elder vampire. Weaken a bit - was DL 54]
    26 Cyclops  		[boosted considerably]
    27 Green wyrm
    28 Druj  		[hybrid of current hand, eye and skull]
    29 Balrog  		[was: lesser balrog]
    30 Blue wyrm
    31 Dracolich
    32 Osyluth
    33 Bronze wyrm  	[like current great wyrm]
    34 Storm giant  	[somewhere carefully selected between current lesser titan and greater titan]
    35 Gelugon
    36 Red wyrm
    37 Nightwalker  	[reduce speed a bit]
    38 Master quythulg  	[can summon hi-dragon, hi-demon and hi-undead, but has lower summons as well]
    39 Gold wyrm
    40 Pit fiend  		[remove hi-dragon summons and maybe chaos breath]
    41 Black reaver  	[ease off on high-end attack spells]
    42 Chromatic wyrm
    More to follow.
    A.
    Ironband - http://angband.oook.cz/ironband/

    Comment

    • LostTemplar
      Knight
      • Aug 2009
      • 670

      #3
      I have the same minimalist concept as a part of my variant. It seems very nice. Angband definitely have too much stuff currently. Btw another concept change I have, is seriously shifting power from the equipment towards temporary buffs from potions.

      Comment

      • Nick
        Vanilla maintainer
        • Apr 2007
        • 9633

        #4
        Originally posted by Antoine
        Code:
        42 Atlas (rebrand as a Storm Giant chieftain? Apart from Lokkak, he is the only unTolkienesque unique now)
        In Tolkien's early mythology, there were two giants called Nan and Gilim, apparently representing summer and winter (you will find them in Sil).
        One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
        In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

        Comment

        • Tobias
          Adept
          • Dec 2009
          • 172

          #5
          I think a band without Hounds is not a real Angband.

          I had thought about making a minimal Angband, whenever I feel like programming again. But I don't think this will happen anytime soon.
          But I would have not made it harder. I am not really good at games.
          For Classes I would say Fighter , Mage and Figher/Mage are enough.
          My Angband videos : http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...385E85F31166B2

          Comment

          • Malak Darkhunter
            Knight
            • May 2007
            • 730

            #6
            Originally posted by Tobias
            I think a band without Hounds is not a real Angband.

            I had thought about making a minimal Angband, whenever I feel like programming again. But I don't think this will happen anytime soon.
            But I would have not made it harder. I am not really good at games.
            For Classes I would say Fighter , Mage and Figher/Mage are enough.
            The only way I can accept hounds is that they are non-breathers, or breath rarely, this is what I did in my variant.

            Some people like different classes than those 3 though, I myself like priests and rogues. Since Antoine is carrying this over from NPP why not have Fighter, Mage, Druid, Priest, Rogue , Ranger ?

            Comment

            • Antoine
              Ironband/Quickband Maintainer
              • Nov 2007
              • 1010

              #7
              Thanks Nick I figured you or someone would pop up with giant unique ideas.

              Since we are discussing classes:

              Post #2 - Classes and Races

              I think five races are plenty:

              Human
              Dwarf (RBlind)
              Gnome (FA)
              Elf (SI)
              Hobbit (HL)

              More attention needs to be paid to classes. Coming from a Basic D&D background I always come back to the foursome:

              Warrior
              • Much as in NPP
              • But no RFear

              Rogue
              • No NPP-style combat boosts
              • Smaller spell selection
              • Gains +1 stealth each level (as per NPP Brigand)

              Priest
              • Pointy penalty with bows and crossbows
              • OOD does less damage (half?)
              • No door/stair detection
              • Cut down to 6 books with 6 spells per book (max)

              Mage
              • No object detection
              • No temporary elemental resists
              • No healing spells
              • Cut down to 6 books with 6 spells per book (max)


              Again the rationale for some of these design decisions will become clearer later.

              A.
              Ironband - http://angband.oook.cz/ironband/

              Comment

              • bio_hazard
                Knight
                • Dec 2008
                • 649

                #8
                A few thoughts on the uniques:

                What's wrong with Bill, Tom, or Bert as a replacement for Lokkak?

                Also, what about Lotho or Ted instead of Bullroarer? (it always kind of bothered me that "good" characters like Farmer Maggot were inserted as monsters to fight)

                Any particular reason you removed Shelob?

                Comment

                • Antoine
                  Ironband/Quickband Maintainer
                  • Nov 2007
                  • 1010

                  #9
                  Originally posted by bio_hazard
                  A few thoughts on the uniques:

                  What's wrong with Bill, Tom, or Bert as a replacement for Lokkak?

                  Also, what about Lotho or Ted instead of Bullroarer? (it always kind of bothered me that "good" characters like Farmer Maggot were inserted as monsters to fight)

                  Any particular reason you removed Shelob?
                  1. Not a bad idea. Problem is that Lokkak's escorts are ogres - would you be comfortable with Bert hanging round with a bunch of ogres? My monster list doesn't have any trolls around that depth.

                  2. Good idea, will do.

                  3. There are no high-level spiders left to escort her.

                  A.
                  Ironband - http://angband.oook.cz/ironband/

                  Comment

                  • bio_hazard
                    Knight
                    • Dec 2008
                    • 649

                    #10
                    Ahhh- forget what I said about Lokkak.

                    Maybe change Shelob a bit- either make her low enough level that the giant spiders would be an appropriate summons, or else scrap the summons and give her other powers (passwall?)

                    Comment

                    • Antoine
                      Ironband/Quickband Maintainer
                      • Nov 2007
                      • 1010

                      #11
                      Originally posted by bio_hazard
                      Ahhh- forget what I said about Lokkak.

                      Maybe change Shelob a bit- either make her low enough level that the giant spiders would be an appropriate summons, or else scrap the summons and give her other powers (passwall?)
                      Perhaps a complete rewrite of Shelob, at much lower level, with no escorts or summons... which might be more consistent with the source material.

                      Could I rename Ogre to Troll, rename Troll to War Troll, and call Lokkak "the Cave Troll of Moria"?

                      A.
                      Ironband - http://angband.oook.cz/ironband/

                      Comment

                      • Tobias
                        Adept
                        • Dec 2009
                        • 172

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Antoine
                        Warrior
                        Rogue
                        Priest
                        Mage
                        Priest also gives you a whole new magic tree, and thus twice as many spells. And the divine/arcane magic separation is a pure D&D thing.
                        An idea might be to make the Rogue a Red-Mage. Who can use Weapons, Armor, Arcane Magic and Divine Magic. This way your hybrid class is in the true middle between the 3 others.

                        btw. I do totally agree with you Race selection.
                        My Angband videos : http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...385E85F31166B2

                        Comment

                        • Antoine
                          Ironband/Quickband Maintainer
                          • Nov 2007
                          • 1010

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Tobias
                          Priest also gives you a whole new magic tree, and thus twice as many spells. And the divine/arcane magic separation is a pure D&D thing.
                          An idea might be to make the Rogue a Red-Mage. Who can use Weapons, Armor, Arcane Magic and Divine Magic. This way your hybrid class is in the true middle between the 3 others.

                          btw. I do totally agree with you Race selection.
                          I'm quite keen on the Priest because of my D&D roots and because the playstyle is so different. I see the Priest as the only character with access to temp resists and the only character with unlimited access to 300-point heals. He pays for this through weak offence.

                          As for the Rogue, I see him as a character with weak offence and defence but great stealth, detection and utility spells - supporting a modern "diver" playstyle.

                          A.
                          Ironband - http://angband.oook.cz/ironband/

                          Comment

                          • ekolis
                            Knight
                            • Apr 2007
                            • 921

                            #14
                            I noticed that of your five races, four are found in Tolkien, while one (the Gnome) is not. I don't know if you want to stay particularly close to canon, but if you do, why not replace the Gnome with a Goblin, or an Ent, or something?
                            You read the scroll labeled NOBIMUS UPSCOTI...
                            You are surrounded by a stasis field!
                            The tengu tries to teleport, but fails!

                            Comment

                            • Malak Darkhunter
                              Knight
                              • May 2007
                              • 730

                              #15
                              I like your selection of classes and races, very good, I myself prefer D@D style charcters and classes, I hope you can incorporate more D@D style spells and replace the angband/moria spells. Thing with priests is that it always pains me when someone weakens OOD, I think priests suffer a lot of penalties to melee and HP, If you weaken OOD they are really going to have a hard time surviving unless, as I mentioned earlier you incorporate the Cleric spells and abilities and from D@D, I think it would be good to rename the priest to the D@D cleric, it was an idea of mine to get rid of the priest types with no gods and rename the monsters to something like this:
                              Acolyte of Bane, Priest of Myrkul, Patriarch of Talos.

                              These are Evil forgotten Realms Gods, you could use gods from the D@D world to add more flavour, You can use this same concept for Mages as well.

                              Comment

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