The (very strong) impression I get from playing many *bands, with autoscum on and off, is that it only really matters below ~lvl50. Deeper than that level, if relatively few arts have been generated (ie. thrall of powerdiver), they start to become common whether autoscum is on or off. As an FA thrall, I ignore level feelings completely (I'm seldom on the level long enough to get one). I also think the high frequency of arts on Anf58 is partly a consequence of 0 energy edge scumming - you can look at a million levels and consume no game time until a longsword 4d5 is generated next to the entrance! This is actually the best winning strategy for the comp, but I for one, lack the patience.
FAangband 0.3.6
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This was also the case in FA035, however what changed in 036 was that artifacts had more of an effect on level feeling. Therefore in 035 the autoscummer would often reject levels with artifacts on for not generating a high enough feeling whilst egos did generate good feelings. Now in 036 those levels that the autoscummer rejected with artifacts are now being accepted and hence the rise in artifact sightings in Anf58.Comment
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The problem with Anf58 is that it is a diagonal cross section, so is only about half a level. It also has a dungeon entrance which prohibits vaults being formed on the level. Therefore the level feeling is entirely made up from half a level's worth of objects and OoD monsters.
This was also the case in FA035, however what changed in 036 was that artifacts had more of an effect on level feeling. Therefore in 035 the autoscummer would often reject levels with artifacts on for not generating a high enough feeling whilst egos did generate good feelings. Now in 036 those levels that the autoscummer rejected with artifacts are now being accepted and hence the rise in artifact sightings in Anf58.Comment
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No surprise here, but I'm entirely for this. Players use the auto-scummer for one reason, because it works. It produces superior results vs. typical play. It produce superior results vs. stair sum play. It provides not only better items but better high XP enemies for quicker leveling. I'll stop short of calling it cheating (since it's included in the game), but it's damn close. I never use the auto-scummer in non-competition play, because it feels a lot like cheating to me. Not every level should be a gold mine.
In lieu of removal, there could be penalty or cost associated with auto-scummer, as there are with the super-races, like XP/2.
IMO it should also be a birth option.www.mediafire.com/buzzkill - Get your 32x32 tiles here. UT32 now compatible Ironband and Quickband 9/6/2012.
My banding life on Buzzkill's ladder.Comment
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I'll agree wholeheartedly with that point as it creates a different gaming experience... and I'd wholeheartedly dispute the rest
I'd be delighted for the autoscummer to be removed - providing the game is made as interesting without it as it currently is with it...Comment
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No surprise here, but I'm entirely for this. Players use the auto-scummer for one reason, because it works. It produces superior results vs. typical play. It produce superior results vs. stair sum play. It provides not only better items but better high XP enemies for quicker leveling. I'll stop short of calling it cheating (since it's included in the game), but it's damn close. I never use the auto-scummer in non-competition play, because it feels a lot like cheating to me. Not every level should be a gold mine.
In lieu of removal, there could be penalty or cost associated with auto-scummer, as there are with the super-races, like XP/2.
IMO it should also be a birth option.
Given that the autoscummer has been untouched since I forked FA from O, having a rethink of it seems like a no-brainer (so I'm ideally qualified ). And, as Psi has pointed out numerous times, Anf 58 is a special case, and may need to be treated as such anyway.One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.Comment
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I always play with Autoscummer on. It makes it exciting. Otherwise the game seems like a grind.
I also support the idea of a birth option.A(3.1.0b) CWS "Fyren_V" NEW L:50 DL:127 A++ R+++ Sp+ w:The Great Axe of Eonwe
A/FA W H- D c-- !f PV+++ s? d P++ M+
C- S+ I- !So B ac++ GHB? SQ? !RQ V F:Comment
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autoscum
IMHO, it does not make sense to generate 1 000 000 Levels each time you go up or down, just until you get one which is "interesting enough". Just as it does not really make sense to generate hundreds of low-quality items, only to squelch them later on. Better generate levels "right" on the first try, and make most items interesting for most of the game.
game balance
It's impossible to (really) balance the game for both cases - you end up with too boring "boring levels", too good "good levels" and all other sort of hassle.
preservation
While at it, "preservation" could be removed/reworked as well.
Ok, so let's say ..
... the scummer is removed, and item rarities tweaked (up?)
Should make balancing easier, and (hopefully) remove -really- boring levels.
... level feelings only give a hint about dangerous monsters (respawn depends on level feeling, too, doesn't it?), but not about items on the floor. I'm not sure about {special} feelings for artifacts, though.
IMHO, in Middle Earth you can "sense" powerful creatures, sometimes, but even the few really powerful artifacts appear quite elusive, and "vaults" (not the monsters within), appear quite un-sensable to me.
Furthermore, I want the player to explore the dungeon fully, not skip levels until he stop to scum for statgain, then skip again 'til he scums for some special artifact etc. (Could !oSTAT be artifacts, and therefore singular, too?). With a non-boring dungeon, this should actually enhance gameplay. And if the player insists on hurrying, he should at least have to invest in extended detection to make shure he does not leave anything valueable behind ...
... preserve is always "on" (it is since 0.3.0, ain't it?), but artifacts left behind (IDed or not) only "respawn" with very low probability.
In Tolkiens works, real artifacts have been proven to be very durable (The Ring, the short swords from the wight graves, Glamdring ...), yet they're very hard to find again once lost, so you better grab them if you get the chance... . Gameplay-wise, it's much more interesting to have the player actually fight for some Ãœberweapon, then simply have him drop down another level or 2 because it will show up again anyway.
Would this make for an interesting, fun game?No, I don't have a clue 'bout C, and I'm not starting my own variant.
Never. Ever.Comment
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autoscum
IMHO, it does not make sense to generate 1 000 000 Levels each time you go up or down, just until you get one which is "interesting enough". Just as it does not really make sense to generate hundreds of low-quality items, only to squelch them later on. Better generate levels "right" on the first try, and make most items interesting for most of the game.
game balance
It's impossible to (really) balance the game for both cases - you end up with too boring "boring levels", too good "good levels" and all other sort of hassle.
... the scummer is removed, and item rarities tweaked (up?)
Should make balancing easier, and (hopefully) remove -really- boring levels.
... level feelings only give a hint about dangerous monsters (respawn depends on level feeling, too, doesn't it?), but not about items on the floor. I'm not sure about {special} feelings for artifacts, though.
... preserve is always "on" (it is since 0.3.0, ain't it?), but artifacts left behind (IDed or not) only "respawn" with very low probability.
In Tolkiens works, real artifacts have been proven to be very durable (The Ring, the short swords from the wight graves, Glamdring ...), yet they're very hard to find again once lost, so you better grab them if you get the chance... . Gameplay-wise, it's much more interesting to have the player actually fight for some Ãœberweapon, then simply have him drop down another level or 2 because it will show up again anyway.
Thanks for the suggestions - you've given me lots to think about.One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.Comment
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In Tolkiens works, real artifacts have been proven to be very durable (The Ring, the short swords from the wight graves, Glamdring ...), yet they're very hard to find again once lost, so you better grab them if you get the chance... . Gameplay-wise, it's much more interesting to have the player actually fight for some Ãœberweapon, then simply have him drop down another level or 2 because it will show up again anyway.
I'm not convinced on gameplay grounds either, but I'm struggling to formulate why not.Comment
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Thematically, they're "lost" already, aren't they? So even if "they're very hard to find again once lost" is true (and I'm not convinced by it) that would make them very hard (equally hard, indeed) to find in the first place.
I'm not convinced on gameplay grounds either, but I'm struggling to formulate why not.
Unless you want to generate persistent levels and then generate the artifacts at a specific place. Without persistent levels loosing an artifact seems absurd because with randomness you can't go back to a place to search for something. Artifacts don't move themselves in real life. So if you miss something you should be able to go back and search for it again. Or if you say that the bad guys keep moving the artifacts then the current model is pretty good for that scenario as you get a chance to search for it somewhere else
Last edited by Rizwan; March 5, 2009, 07:21.Comment
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It's impossible to (really) balance the game for both cases - you end up with too boring "boring levels", too good "good levels" and all other sort of hassle.
While at it, "preservation" could be removed/reworked as well.
Ok, so let's say the scummer is removed, and item rarities tweaked (up?)
Should make balancing easier, and (hopefully) remove -really- boring levels.
... and eliminate level feeling with auto-scum on, or limit their scope to enemies, and ignore item feelings.www.mediafire.com/buzzkill - Get your 32x32 tiles here. UT32 now compatible Ironband and Quickband 9/6/2012.
My banding life on Buzzkill's ladder.Comment
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I have the beginnings of a scheme to deal with this, which essentially involves having for a minimum target 'score' for a level. One obvious question with then is 'should the score be more like current with or without autoscum?'. And one obvious answer is that you can actually set a 'difficulty level' at birth. Note that 'easy' would not mean easy here; it would mean less out of depth monsters and objects. This opens the can of worms of multiple difficulty levels, too.One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.Comment
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Maybe another birth option with the AutoScum toggle could be a value between 1-100 on the AutoScummer threshold as to how "crazy" a level needs to be to count on the autoscummer?
Just brainstormingA(3.1.0b) CWS "Fyren_V" NEW L:50 DL:127 A++ R+++ Sp+ w:The Great Axe of Eonwe
A/FA W H- D c-- !f PV+++ s? d P++ M+
C- S+ I- !So B ac++ GHB? SQ? !RQ V F:Comment
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No objection to removal 'of 'boring' levels, but I fear this may, in effect, make the game easier (although I don't have a ton of confidence in that statement). For some reason, I don't mind the auto-scummers existence in ironman mode. I think it's the combo of auto-scumming and stair-scumming that bothers me. Maybe, make it a birth option, force dis-connected stairs, and limit the up staircases to 1 per DL with auto-scum on. I've no idea how to handle this with FA's abundant wilderness.
... and eliminate level feeling with auto-scum on, or limit their scope to enemies, and ignore item feelings.
So the obvious question is: do people toggle autoscum because (a) it's fun or because (b) it makes the game more easy? If there's even the slightest inkling of reason (a), then you should think long and hard before changing the mechanic.
Put another way, the emphasis should be on making 'normal play' (whatever that is) more fun, not on penalizing abnormal play (whatever that is judged to be) to make it less desirable. If abnormal play is more fun then it should be allowed and unimpeded until better ideas are brought forth.
The only real reason we should want to discontinue autoscum as a toggle-option is because it's tedious to go into the options and toggle it, not because it defies some vague notion of 'virtuous play' that Buzzkill is perennially and bafflingly so concerned with. Only boring play should be punished, and we haven't established that toggle autoscumming constitutes boring play. Frankly, I don't think either myself or Buzzkill are qualified to make that call - we ought to be asking the all-stars at the top of the competition ladder. Whatever "cheating" is in FA is a matter of accrued experience, not theory.
The ideal would be a fully balanced game without autoscum, but before then, I say leave the virtuous play to those who care about virtue (who can treat the autoscummer as a birth option whether it exists as such or not), and let everyone else have fun.Bands, / Those funny little plans / That never work quite right.
-Mercury RevComment
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