FAangband 0.3.6

[Cave Man]

I think the critical issue here is the large chance of getting an artifact in Anfauglith 58 with autoscum on. This has arisen because there was a bug in autoscum, which (O and then) FA had been optimised around; Psi found and fixed it in 0.3.6, with some unexpected consequences. One way to deal with this is to make Anf 58 (and other dungeon entrance levels) a special case in the autoscummer. This seems to me kind of like fixing a symptom of a deeper problem, though. Here are some not entirely random thoughts:

1. Autoscum generally could be set to a lower level, or the ratings for level feelings overhauled;
2. Autoscum could be removed entirely;
3. Level feelings could be removed entirely;
4. Level feelings could be redesigned (either in a minor or a major way);
5. Unlight gives the darkness bonus in wilderness at any time unless there is actually a light breath or spell. That's a bug.
6. The weightings for the various things that add to the level feeling could be tweaked.

The (very strong) impression I get from playing many *bands, with autoscum on and off, is that it only really matters below ~lvl50. Deeper than that level, if relatively few arts have been generated (ie. thrall of powerdiver), they start to become common whether autoscum is on or off. As an FA thrall, I ignore level feelings completely (I'm seldom on the level long enough to get one). I also think the high frequency of arts on Anf58 is partly a consequence of 0 energy edge scumming - you can look at a million levels and consume no game time until a longsword 4d5 is generated next to the entrance! This is actually the best winning strategy for the comp, but I for one, lack the patience.

[Psi]

I also think the high frequency of arts on Anf58 is partly a consequence of 0 energy edge scumming - you can look at a million levels and consume no game time until a longsword 4d5 is generated next to the entrance!

The problem with Anf58 is that it is a diagonal cross section, so is only about half a level. It also has a dungeon entrance which prohibits vaults being formed on the level. Therefore the level feeling is entirely made up from half a level's worth of objects and OoD monsters.

This was also the case in FA035, however what changed in 036 was that artifacts had more of an effect on level feeling. Therefore in 035 the autoscummer would often reject levels with artifacts on for not generating a high enough feeling whilst egos did generate good feelings. Now in 036 those levels that the autoscummer rejected with artifacts are now being accepted and hence the rise in artifact sightings in Anf58.

[Cave Man]

The problem with Anf58 is that it is a diagonal cross section, so is only about half a level. It also has a dungeon entrance which prohibits vaults being formed on the level. Therefore the level feeling is entirely made up from half a level's worth of objects and OoD monsters.

This was also the case in FA035, however what changed in 036 was that artifacts had more of an effect on level feeling. Therefore in 035 the autoscummer would often reject levels with artifacts on for not generating a high enough feeling whilst egos did generate good feelings. Now in 036 those levels that the autoscummer rejected with artifacts are now being accepted and hence the rise in artifact sightings in Anf58.

I'm not denying that the shape and rules for Anf58 will affect art generation. I'm just not convinced that the effect is that big. Have you tested the rate of art generation with autoscum off in thrall mode? I'd be suprised if it was very different to autoscum on. I think its much more related to the player seeing a significant chunk of the open area available for item drop on desert levels (exacerbated by the 1/2 size of 58).

[buzzkill]

[*]Autoscum could be removed entirely

No surprise here, but I'm entirely for this. Players use the auto-scummer for one reason, because it works. It produces superior results vs. typical play. It produce superior results vs. stair sum play. It provides not only better items but better high XP enemies for quicker leveling. I'll stop short of calling it cheating (since it's included in the game), but it's damn close. I never use the auto-scummer in non-competition play, because it feels a lot like cheating to me. Not every level should be a gold mine.

In lieu of removal, there could be penalty or cost associated with auto-scummer, as there are with the super-races, like XP/2.

IMO it should also be a birth option.

[Psi]

IMO it should also be a birth option.

I'll agree wholeheartedly with that point as it creates a different gaming experience... and I'd wholeheartedly dispute the rest

I'd be delighted for the autoscummer to be removed - providing the game is made as interesting without it as it currently is with it...

[Nick]

No surprise here, but I'm entirely for this. Players use the auto-scummer for one reason, because it works. It produces superior results vs. typical play. It produce superior results vs. stair sum play. It provides not only better items but better high XP enemies for quicker leveling. I'll stop short of calling it cheating (since it's included in the game), but it's damn close. I never use the auto-scummer in non-competition play, because it feels a lot like cheating to me. Not every level should be a gold mine.

...on the other hand, playing O with autoscum is usually regarded as suicide

In lieu of removal, there could be penalty or cost associated with auto-scummer, as there are with the super-races, like XP/2.

There's no XP penalty in O/FA.

IMO it should also be a birth option.

I think I'm going to have to imitate takkaria and make my sig "It's not going to be a birth option".

Given that the autoscummer has been untouched since I forked FA from O, having a rethink of it seems like a no-brainer (so I'm ideally qualified ). And, as Psi has pointed out numerous times, Anf 58 is a special case, and may need to be treated as such anyway.

[Zikke]

I always play with Autoscummer on. It makes it exciting. Otherwise the game seems like a grind.

I also support the idea of a birth option.

[Arralen]

autoscum
IMHO, it does not make sense to generate 1 000 000 Levels each time you go up or down, just until you get one which is "interesting enough". Just as it does not really make sense to generate hundreds of low-quality items, only to squelch them later on. Better generate levels "right" on the first try, and make most items interesting for most of the game.

game balance
It's impossible to (really) balance the game for both cases - you end up with too boring "boring levels", too good "good levels" and all other sort of hassle.

preservation
While at it, "preservation" could be removed/reworked as well.

Ok, so let's say ..
... the scummer is removed, and item rarities tweaked (up?)
Should make balancing easier, and (hopefully) remove -really- boring levels.

... level feelings only give a hint about dangerous monsters (respawn depends on level feeling, too, doesn't it?), but not about items on the floor. I'm not sure about {special} feelings for artifacts, though.
IMHO, in Middle Earth you can "sense" powerful creatures, sometimes, but even the few really powerful artifacts appear quite elusive, and "vaults" (not the monsters within), appear quite un-sensable to me.
Furthermore, I want the player to explore the dungeon fully, not skip levels until he stop to scum for statgain, then skip again 'til he scums for some special artifact etc. (Could !oSTAT be artifacts, and therefore singular, too?). With a non-boring dungeon, this should actually enhance gameplay. And if the player insists on hurrying, he should at least have to invest in extended detection to make shure he does not leave anything valueable behind ...

... preserve is always "on" (it is since 0.3.0, ain't it?), but artifacts left behind (IDed or not) only "respawn" with very low probability.
In Tolkiens works, real artifacts have been proven to be very durable (The Ring, the short swords from the wight graves, Glamdring ...), yet they're very hard to find again once lost, so you better grab them if you get the chance... . Gameplay-wise, it's much more interesting to have the player actually fight for some Überweapon, then simply have him drop down another level or 2 because it will show up again anyway.

Would this make for an interesting, fun game?

[Nick]

autoscum
IMHO, it does not make sense to generate 1 000 000 Levels each time you go up or down, just until you get one which is "interesting enough". Just as it does not really make sense to generate hundreds of low-quality items, only to squelch them later on. Better generate levels "right" on the first try, and make most items interesting for most of the game.

Precisely. The autoscummer is actually a big hack, presumably introduced in the first place to mimic what players were doing anyway to cover inadequacy in level generation. Just like squelch as a solution to the junk problem.

game balance
It's impossible to (really) balance the game for both cases - you end up with too boring "boring levels", too good "good levels" and all other sort of hassle.

Agreed again.

... the scummer is removed, and item rarities tweaked (up?)
Should make balancing easier, and (hopefully) remove -really- boring levels.

This is a good aim.

... level feelings only give a hint about dangerous monsters (respawn depends on level feeling, too, doesn't it?), but not about items on the floor. I'm not sure about {special} feelings for artifacts, though.

Interesting - I'll think about this one.

... preserve is always "on" (it is since 0.3.0, ain't it?), but artifacts left behind (IDed or not) only "respawn" with very low probability.
In Tolkiens works, real artifacts have been proven to be very durable (The Ring, the short swords from the wight graves, Glamdring ...), yet they're very hard to find again once lost, so you better grab them if you get the chance... . Gameplay-wise, it's much more interesting to have the player actually fight for some Überweapon, then simply have him drop down another level or 2 because it will show up again anyway.

This is a most intriguing idea. The chief problem I can see is that wilderness levels are not really designed to be exhaustively searched (at least, not always); in particular, it's frequently necessary to retreat, particularly with advanced races. So I think this would not work as it is, but it is food for thought.

Thanks for the suggestions - you've given me lots to think about.

[Daniel Fishman]

In Tolkiens works, real artifacts have been proven to be very durable (The Ring, the short swords from the wight graves, Glamdring ...), yet they're very hard to find again once lost, so you better grab them if you get the chance... . Gameplay-wise, it's much more interesting to have the player actually fight for some Überweapon, then simply have him drop down another level or 2 because it will show up again anyway.

Thematically, they're "lost" already, aren't they? So even if "they're very hard to find again once lost" is true (and I'm not convinced by it) that would make them very hard (equally hard, indeed) to find in the first place.

I'm not convinced on gameplay grounds either, but I'm struggling to formulate why not.

[Rizwan]

Thematically, they're "lost" already, aren't they? So even if "they're very hard to find again once lost" is true (and I'm not convinced by it) that would make them very hard (equally hard, indeed) to find in the first place.

I'm not convinced on gameplay grounds either, but I'm struggling to formulate why not.

Quite right! If they are generated on a level and you don't find them then they are still lost and you have a chance (really the same chance as finding them in the first place, again) of finding them at some other time and place

Unless you want to generate persistent levels and then generate the artifacts at a specific place. Without persistent levels loosing an artifact seems absurd because with randomness you can't go back to a place to search for something. Artifacts don't move themselves in real life. So if you miss something you should be able to go back and search for it again. Or if you say that the bad guys keep moving the artifacts then the current model is pretty good for that scenario as you get a chance to search for it somewhere else

[buzzkill]

IMHO, it does not make sense to generate 1 000 000... better generate levels "right" on the first try, and make most items interesting for most of the game.

Getting it 'right'. That's the real trick, isn't it? I've a feeling that the definition of 'right' would vary greatly from player to player (not that the auto-scummer get it 'right' either).

It's impossible to (really) balance the game for both cases - you end up with too boring "boring levels", too good "good levels" and all other sort of hassle.

This, in effect, is balance, though not perfect. It may be as close as you are going to get, given random dungeon generation.

While at it, "preservation" could be removed/reworked as well.

Couldn't artifacts be 'locked' to only (and/or always) appear on the DL where they first appeared. Thus, if you decide pass on a {superb} level, that particular item(s) will not be found again unless you return to this DL to search for it.

Ok, so let's say the scummer is removed, and item rarities tweaked (up?)
Should make balancing easier, and (hopefully) remove -really- boring levels.

No objection to removal 'of 'boring' levels, but I fear this may, in effect, make the game easier (although I don't have a ton of confidence in that statement). For some reason, I don't mind the auto-scummers existence in ironman mode. I think it's the combo of auto-scumming and stair-scumming that bothers me. Maybe, make it a birth option, force dis-connected stairs, and limit the up staircases to 1 per DL with auto-scum on. I've no idea how to handle this with FA's abundant wilderness.

... and eliminate level feeling with auto-scum on, or limit their scope to enemies, and ignore item feelings.

[Nick]

Getting it 'right'. That's the real trick, isn't it? I've a feeling that the definition of 'right' would vary greatly from player to player (not that the auto-scummer get it 'right' either).

Yes, so with autoscum you have two different approximations to right.

I have the beginnings of a scheme to deal with this, which essentially involves having for a minimum target 'score' for a level. One obvious question with then is 'should the score be more like current with or without autoscum?'. And one obvious answer is that you can actually set a 'difficulty level' at birth. Note that 'easy' would not mean easy here; it would mean less out of depth monsters and objects. This opens the can of worms of multiple difficulty levels, too.

[Zikke]

Maybe another birth option with the AutoScum toggle could be a value between 1-100 on the AutoScummer threshold as to how "crazy" a level needs to be to count on the autoscummer?

Just brainstorming

[Donald Jonker]

Getting it 'right'. That's the real trick, isn't it? I've a feeling that the definition of 'right' would vary greatly from player to player (not that the auto-scummer get it 'right' either).

Balance is indeed what should be under consideration. "What is most fun?" should be the driving question behind any change to the autoscum system.

No objection to removal 'of 'boring' levels, but I fear this may, in effect, make the game easier (although I don't have a ton of confidence in that statement). For some reason, I don't mind the auto-scummers existence in ironman mode. I think it's the combo of auto-scumming and stair-scumming that bothers me. Maybe, make it a birth option, force dis-connected stairs, and limit the up staircases to 1 per DL with auto-scum on. I've no idea how to handle this with FA's abundant wilderness.

... and eliminate level feeling with auto-scum on, or limit their scope to enemies, and ignore item feelings.

This is emphatically *not* what should be under consideration. Difficulty should always be a subordinate issue to fun; sometimes they're the same, but when they're not, fun must take the fore.

So the obvious question is: do people toggle autoscum because (a) it's fun or because (b) it makes the game more easy? If there's even the slightest inkling of reason (a), then you should think long and hard before changing the mechanic.

Put another way, the emphasis should be on making 'normal play' (whatever that is) more fun, not on penalizing abnormal play (whatever that is judged to be) to make it less desirable. If abnormal play is more fun then it should be allowed and unimpeded until better ideas are brought forth.

The only real reason we should want to discontinue autoscum as a toggle-option is because it's tedious to go into the options and toggle it, not because it defies some vague notion of 'virtuous play' that Buzzkill is perennially and bafflingly so concerned with. Only boring play should be punished, and we haven't established that toggle autoscumming constitutes boring play. Frankly, I don't think either myself or Buzzkill are qualified to make that call - we ought to be asking the all-stars at the top of the competition ladder. Whatever "cheating" is in FA is a matter of accrued experience, not theory.

The ideal would be a fully balanced game without autoscum, but before then, I say leave the virtuous play to those who care about virtue (who can treat the autoscummer as a birth option whether it exists as such or not), and let everyone else have fun.