Current master post 4.2.0

[DavidMedley]

Maybe mention it the first time a player visits a shop, or the first time they sell an item.

First time they try to sell an item is a very good idea. Like when they press d and before or simultaneous to seeing they're gonna get 0AU for their loot. Much better than their first few turns in the town when there's a lot to take in.

Useful on the first play, but is there a way to make it not annoying on the fifty-first play?

[mrfy]

And point out the benefits of no-selling. Extra $$ on drops and treasure in walls.

[spara]

In my opinion as a game mechanic no-selling is better than selling. Makes the game much more streamlined. However it's quite illogical in a game world where there are shops around and more so in a genre where looting and selling is considered to be a cornerstone of some sort. Is there a reason for balancing the no-selling option by increasing the amount of money found in the dungeon instead of just allowing players to quick sell loot in the dungeon?

[PowerWyrm]

And once you tell them, then they know

Many long-time players (me included) were sceptical about no-selling before it was made the default, and it has been pretty much universally acknowledged that it is a big improvement to gameplay. I think setting it as not the default is sending the wrong signals (especially to new players) as to what is important in the game. There was a period where Angband was derided as the "game of shopping", where a large part of the game consisted of wandering the dungeon slowed to -2 or -3 so you could lug around the latest collection of useless ego weapons to sell in the shops. I'd rather not go back to that.

We were having a discussion for PWMAngband about no-selling and the amount of cash you get from enhanced coin piles. The result was that a linear distribution was not working at all, as you get way too much money in the beginning by simply wandering the first few levels, getting like 2-3k in seconds, recalling and simply buying everything you need for half the game (almost), and then getting way too few in the endgame to get a couple exceptional items that would show up in the Black Market. Maybe change the formula (plain factor 5) to something more gradual?

[Nick]

We were having a discussion for PWMAngband about no-selling and the amount of cash you get from enhanced coin piles. The result was that a linear distribution was not working at all, as you get way too much money in the beginning by simply wandering the first few levels, getting like 2-3k in seconds, recalling and simply buying everything you need for half the game (almost), and then getting way too few in the endgame to get a couple exceptional items that would show up in the Black Market. Maybe change the formula (plain factor 5) to something more gradual?

Maybe make the multiplier 2 or 3 + (player level / 5)?

[Mondkalb]

I switched back to selling.
I don't carry around useless items just to sell them, only if I am planning to recall soon, I start to collect some stuff to sell.
Plus, since the game encourages diving, I don't recall until I have reached some depth and shall get decent money for my loot (and get additional runes identified, which is of use also in no-selling mode).
One very good reason for me to do so, is that I can sell dungeon books that are of no use for the current @ for lots of gold. With no-selling on, dungeon books may generate excellent level feelings and dissappointed players .

[tangar]

No-selling simplify item's managment - one of the most annoying (to me) aspect of the game. Actually even with no-selling there are more then enough item managment - where you have to juggle items to combine certain set of items to cover resistances properly.. I hate this aspect of the game, sorry I think a lot of players likes it, but personally I like getting to the dungeon and fight there, not sitting upon piles of items.. So no-selling is the only way which I play.. Angband no-selling it's the most awesome mechanic in all-over roguelike games around. It's saves time which otherwise you have to spend on items managment - so you could spend it on something really interesting - actually playing the game by surviving in the dungeon.

Another point is.. CHArisma stat. Without it what the point to trade stuff to NPC (ok, it's my old grudge about missing CHA...) Btw.. maybe there could be a parameter which could just influence on gold amount you find in the dungeon via no-selling... So instead of CHA there will be LUCK parameter then? Which is not possible to increase with the help of STAT potions (only at character creation). It will greatly help to rebalance different races.

Anyway I miss times in Moria where you were able to bargain with NPCs in shops It was great to get a good deal after some time of persuading NPC to buy stuff for bigger price.. But it's just a nostalgia. I won't switch back to selling to NPC ever I suppose But as they say: never say never...

[DavidMedley]

You hate selling and love CHA?

[tangar]

Yep I love CHArisma stat, it's very traditional. Came out from DnD (and it still there). CHArisma is great help for race rabalancing. Even with no-selling it could help in gamedesign: playing physically outstanding half-troll you should pay consequences for your ugly face when you try to _buy_ stuff from the shops.

Actually there are a lot of stuff which we could take from DnD, especially in terms of formulas and game balance.. Get back to the roots is useful sometimes, to see the picture with a fresh eye

[DavidMedley]

a large part of the game consisted of wandering the dungeon slowed to -2 or -3 so you could lug around the latest collection of useless ego weapons to sell in the shops

Was there an unlimited supply of cheap recall back then? I don't understand why players did this. I don't see them doing it now.

[NightLizard]

I've gotten a few new players into the game in the last several months and they all ask me about why they can't sell items for more than $0.

I don't understand why they expect to be able to sell, or why it would be confusing? Plenty of roguelikes have no selling, and there's nothing indicating that you can sell an item when you play with "no selling". It says "press d to give the item away for identification".

[DavidMedley]

I don't understand why they expect to be able to sell

Because of life and shops buy and sell and why wouldn't they give you a little money for a priceless artifact so you don't just drop it on the ground instead?

Plenty of roguelikes have no selling

Which ones have a town and no selling?

[Sideways]

"Why do I get $0 for selling items?" is one of the most frequently asked questions at angband.live, up there with "how do I set up subwindows?", "which variants should I try?" and "[rodent/Gwarl/EpicMan], can you make corpses and skeletons weigh so much that no one except Igors can actually lug them home for the reward?"; though none of those are in the same league as the all-time champion "why do I move a zillion squares every time I press an arrow?"...

[Nick]

First time they try to sell an item is a very good idea. Like when they press d and before or simultaneous to seeing they're gonna get 0AU for their loot. Much better than their first few turns in the town when there's a lot to take in.

Useful on the first play, but is there a way to make it not annoying on the fifty-first play?

I'm actually now thinking no change. There are already multiple prompts for "give" rather than "sell", and it's explained further in the shop help. Plus the game documentation. Failing that, the player gives their first item and doesn't get anything back - that's a pretty clear message.

There are a hundred not-completely-obvious game mechanics, and focusing on one just takes attention away from the others. I feel like the balance between no information and annoying repeated information is OK for no-selling.

[wobbly]

Was there an unlimited supply of cheap recall back then? I don't understand why players did this. I don't see them doing it now.

The opposite. You didn't start with ?recall & it's around 300au (chr is still a stat, shopkeepers are biggots). ?phase & !clw are more expensive, early drops are stuff like +0 cloaks, filthy rags & cursed items. No guaranteed items in the shops, there might not be a recall scroll or arrows sometimes. Anyway instead of buying a stack of phase and clw it would take a few trips to the low levels (using the stairs) just to buy the starting kit people use now and a bunch of sunk time buy/selling basic consumables. A bit more sunk time before you get a constant source of id.