Angband 4.2.0

[Sky]

... did prot evil from 4.1.2 work the same??
i thought it just gave you a buff, like Blessing.

[archolewa]

... did prot evil from 4.1.2 work the same??
i thought it just gave you a buff, like Blessing.

It did, and it was pretty useless then too for a paladin. Slightly more useful for a priest, because a priest has more SP and better fail rates sooner, but still not great. I t kind of went unnoticed (at least to me) because so much of the paladin's spell list was redundant or useless already. Now that Nick has tightened up the spell list, Protection from Evil's lack of utility is much more obvious.

[DavidMedley]

The current implementation seems fundamentally unbalanceable -- if it's useful, then it's too good. So it needs to work differently to be usable.

What is the math, currently? Would chance of repulsion = CL/(CL+ML) be too overpowered? What about CL/(CL+2*ML)?

[wobbly]

What is the math, currently? Would chance of repulsion = CL/(CL+ML) be too overpowered? What about CL/(CL+2*ML)?

if (monster_is_evil(mon) && p->lev >= rlev &&

				    randint0(100) + p->lev > 50) {

The issue is it does nothing against anything of depth > 50. It actually catches about half the ancient dragons? They are the cut-off mark, so it goes from fairly effective against ancient blue to nothing against ancient black.

CL/(CL+ML) is 1/3 against Morgoth which is pretty potent.

Edit: Its also not doing much unless you are grinding, or hitting soft targets. If your depth is > then cl anything native to your depth is unaffected.

[archolewa]

What if Protection from Evil granted a damage reduction against evil, like that one suit of armor Belegennon, which grants +5 damage reduction (though Belegennon reduces all damage, not just damage from evil creatures)?

It's also I think much easier to balance than the current repulsion, because it's more of a continuum. It could also grant partial resistance against draining if you wanted to keep the benefit of "attacks that get repulsed can't do their other nasty things."

Even if it scaled slowly and/or topped out early, it would never wear out its welcome because every little bit helps? Sort of like Bless and Heroism.

Heck, even if we replaced the repulsion with partial draining protection, it'd probably be a worthwhile spell. And it would let the paladin be *even more* flexible when it comes to equipment. Maybe it tops out at 75% draining protection for CL 50. This would also be much easier to balance than the binary repulsion we have now.

[DavidMedley]

if (monster_is_evil(mon) && p->lev >= rlev &&

				    randint0(100) + p->lev > 50) {

Well, there's your problem. It's so all-or-nothing. We all knew that if we've used PfE, but seeing it in the code is still kind of shocking. At level 50 it's literally either 100% protection or 0%, if I'm reading this right.

[DavidMedley]

What if Protection from Evil granted a damage reduction against evil

I think the current system is thematic and interesting. But it does need to be a continuum, as you said.

[DavidMedley]

Looking at randart0 I see there's actually a 1 in 100 chance that a monster can attack you at CL 50. Anyway...

[DavidMedley]

Some Example Repel Chances

Did a quick work-up in my Angband spreadsheet. I think the "Cur"rent chance to repel is correct, but I could be wrong. Took 4 enemies at 3 different character levels - 1/2 level, same level, same +1, and double level. I put in my 2 suggested alternatives, but that's really off the top of my head and there may be much better ways to approach it.

Chance to Repel

CL	ML	Cur	CL/(CL+ML)	CL/(CL+2*ML)
15	8	64%	65%	48%
15	15	64%	50%	33%
15	16	0%	48%	32%
15	30	0%	33%	20%

30	15	79%	67%	50%
30	30	79%	50%	33%
30	31	0%	49%	33%
30	60	0%	33%	20%

50	25	99%	67%	50%
50	50	99%	50%	33%
50	51	0%	50%	33%
50	100	0%	33%	20%

Link to my shared spreadsheet

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nAVk2AodMHloqhLBzZm7p_s4mne3My4Kyo9wODJWAFQ/edit?usp=sharing

[Derakon]

Really the fundamental issue with the spell as-is is that it nullifies the threat from monsters that you already don't care about, while doing nothing to protect you from monsters that you do care about. About the only scenario in which I can conceive of Protection from Evil being helpful is when fighting an orc unique in the earlyish game. Uruks are level 16 but not ignorable when you're level 17, so having them whiff some attacks could stretch your resources some.

But once you're past dlvl20 or so, monster level very quickly outstrips player level, which removes any remaining utility from the current implementation of the spell.

[Pete Mack]

@Derakon--
Yep, it was always useless as a paladin spell, except for chars with bad melee. But for priests, it makes a real difference: with PfE and weak healing spells, you can take on huge mobs of trolls with a 1-blow character.

[bron]

About the only scenario in which I can conceive of Protection from Evil being helpful is when fighting an orc unique in the earlyish game.

I agree that the "earlyish" game is the place where this prayer is useful. But I wouldn't dismiss it quite so flippantly. Personally, I find the prayer very very useful for priests struggling to get down to stat gain depths. OOD is very powerful, but you don't yet have the SP to use it too much, and you're still only getting one blow with your melee weapon. And you'll encounter a pack of Trolls, or a tribe of Uruks, or an Orc unique, almost every level from DL15 - DL30. PFE makes a world of difference.

To use a totally unfair and invalid comparison, "Magic Missile" is only really useful in the early game, but Mages would never make it to the later game without it.

[archolewa]

I agree that the "earlyish" game is the place where this prayer is useful. But I wouldn't dismiss it quite so flippantly. Personally, I find the prayer very very useful for priests struggling to get down to stat gain depths.

True, and I used it quite a bit in my 4.1 priest win, but it's just taking up space in the *paladin* spell list, which is what my criticism was aimed at.

I think leaving it as-is for priests is fine. But paladins should either have it replaced with something else (like temporary armor resistance), or given some sort of paladin-only tweak. I like Derakon's mobile-glyph of warding idea. Thematically, the paladin could be inscribing the glyph on his shield.

[DavidMedley]

Smite Evil

While we're on Paladin, what about Smite Evil? I may not understand it completely, but it seems completely useless. Get it in 4th holy book (Paly's 3rd) and can cast at CL 25 for 20 mana. Gives your weapon a temporary x2 mult against evil, right? But this is not cumulative with any brands? I can't picture a Paladin ever having a weapon at CL 25 that doesn't x2 already. My CL31 Paladin has Prot from Evil on *always* but never Smite Evil.

If I'm under-selling it, let me know.

[Derakon]

Brands and slays never stack; they'd be ridiculously overpowered if they did. The utility of Smite Evil depends on whether you want to use a weapon that has big dice but doesn't have useful brands/slays. That's pretty niche but not so much that I can declare a priori that it's useless.