Class/magic feature branch

[Nick]

I thought a lot about the level and spell distribution of the new mage. I cannot see a smooth exponential power curve - neither in spells nor in books.

I think that is a very important topic Nick, would you please be so kind to post a short summary about what your plans are here? I mean 2 books in shop and 3 in the dungeon ... (besides the fact that i don't like it) how does that fit to the exponential character attack power development?

I guess by "smooth exponential power curve" you mean that the damage output doubles over a fixed number of levels?

I have never thought about that as the way mages work, and so I haven't analysed it like that. The initial idea of the planned changes was to remove spells that never got used; also reducing the number of books seemed sensible then, rather than keep tying down the same number of inventory slots. The current plan was then arrived on out of lots of discussion.

[Tibarius]

erm

I guess by "smooth exponential power curve" you mean that the damage output doubles over a fixed number of levels?

I have never thought about that as the way mages work, and ...

Do not all classes develop like this? To my understanding yes. I would like to contribute to the development, because i like to play this game.

Yet i fail to see how the changes which are currently test play able fit to the rest of the game. And i do not feel comfortable with them because the new mage is not able to play the game like i did in the past.

If i should be able to contribute ideas and suggestions then i need to understand the direction you want the game to develop to. And as player i would of course prefer if i like the new version .

Can you explain in as less words as possible, how you think mages work?

[Nick]

New builds are up on the build page, with the main feature being the new druid class.

This is a first attempt, and there is a major new feature - player shapechanges. This is based roughly on how Oangband does it - the player's equipment is considered to merge into their body as part of the shapechange - with the added "feature" that shapechanged players can't use items (except for eating food off the ground). Shapechanges are (currently) only made by druid spells, and the player can revert to normal using the 'm' command (and also gets asked if they want to if they try to use an item).

I am very interested to hear what people think about all aspects of the new class.

There are also some modifications to monster status effects - slow and confuse are now progressive as outlined earlier - and some streamlining of the process of adding new classes.

Can you explain in as less words as possible, how you think mages work?

I'll get back to you on this, I'm thinking of how best to describe it.

[Nick]

Do not all classes develop like this? To my understanding yes. I would like to contribute to the development, because i like to play this game.

I'm not sure if you mean how do classes get developed (by the game developer), or how does a sample character develop, so I'll try to answer both.

First meaning - from my experience, I've taken existing classes and tweaked them. I guess you need some top-down analysis (how much damage output you need, how many HP, etc) and some bottom-up (play it and see how it goes). So far in this thread you have been contributing to both of these, by saying how things should work, and by playtesting and reporting experiences.

Second meaning - characters in Angband develop largely by finding better equipment. For a spellcaster, their spells are what allow them to stay alive, and to kill monsters so they can get more equipment. So they need to be provided with spells which adequately do that given the threats they're likely to be facing, and the equipment they're likely to have. This can be both thought about in advance and tested in practice - so I guess we're back to a combination of top-down and bottom-up again.

Yet i fail to see how the changes which are currently test play able fit to the rest of the game. And i do not feel comfortable with them because the new mage is not able to play the game like i did in the past.

So lets say we're aiming to do two things:

1. Remove spells which are not useful and
2. Make the spellcasting realms seem more distinct.

Number one is fairly easy, and could be done by just removing those spells. Although even then, you would have the question of whether to re-arrange spells within books and remove books, which has an effect on when the player is likely to get those spells.

Number two seems like a good idea - and I still think it is - but it does require considerable work. Of the new classes, I've played both mage and druid for a bit, and they both clearly need work - I'll say more about mages below.

If i should be able to contribute ideas and suggestions then i need to understand the direction you want the game to develop to. And as player i would of course prefer if i like the new version .

Yes, indeed.

The general idea is in this post. To summarise: there are particular types ("realms") of magic possible; character classes indicate the particular approach to life the character takes; these approaches may imply the use of magic from one or more realms; pure spellcasters are specialists in a particular realm.

So the art here is to construct classes which fit an underlying theme, and which are also practical. My starting point, then has been to try to construct the pure spellcasters thematically first, and then see what changes and compromises are needed. And we do want the final outcome to be fun to play

Can you explain in as less words as possible, how you think mages work?

Well, there's this

More seriously, they have few hitpoints and are generally fairly bad at melee and shooting, but get good detection, escape and (later in the game) control and power. I think the new mage as it currently stands reflects these things fairly well. But it has problems, and I'll list a few that I'm seeing:

• Loss or delay of some of the old mage spells which were important for survival - Light Area, Haste Self, Teleport Self, Stone to Mud. There was a reason why *every* class (but warriors) got Light Area early.
• Pacing. Up to about DL20 is fine, but it feels like a big wait for the first dungeon book.
• If mages are going to be big device users, their recharging needs improvement - I was constantly blowing up devices.

Some of these problems were just me being unused to the new class, but some work is clearly needed. And I think the best way to do that as more or less as we are - I make changes, there is playtesting and discussion, and then more changes, until we end up with a decent result.

[PowerWyrm]

New builds are up on the build page, with the main feature being the new druid class.

Ah that's where the missing spells (haste, stm, meteor, rift...) went...

Lightning Strike doesn't accept a target, it justs creates the effect around @. And there are still damage info missing on some spells.

About shapechanging, why not simply do like PWMAngband (or TomeNET) and use an actual monster race for shapechanging? You then inherit from all the race's properties (hps, ac, damage... even symbol/color). In TomeNET, a druid can polymorph into panthers, bears, eagles.. even jabberwocks at level 50). In PWMAngband I even have a dragon race than can evolve using all the different dragon races in the game.

[Nick]

Lightning Strike doesn't accept a target, it justs creates the effect around @.

Weird, it works for me.

And there are still damage info missing on some spells.

Yes, I've got some improvements in development that I haven't pushed yet - including handling of multiple effects (like Lightning Strike).

About shapechanging, why not simply do like PWMAngband (or TomeNET) and use an actual monster race for shapechanging? You then inherit from all the race's properties (hps, ac, damage... even symbol/color). In TomeNET, a druid can polymorph into panthers, bears, eagles.. even jabberwocks at level 50). In PWMAngband I even have a dragon race than can evolve using all the different dragon races in the game.

There were multiple options. I went with this one in the end because it seemed simple for the player, and fairly easy to balance.

[PowerWyrm]

About Lightning Strike, it's the lightning bolt effect that doesn't work. If you choose a target that isn't in the blast area of the sound ball, it doesn't get hit at all.

[Nick]

About Lightning Strike, it's the lightning bolt effect that doesn't work. If you choose a target that isn't in the blast area of the sound ball, it doesn't get hit at all.

It's meant to be a strike from above, it's not coming from the player - so the target gets hit by the lightning, and then there's a sound ball centred on the target (again, not coming from the player). This is exactly what I'm seeing happen.

[kaypy]

Still going through again with last batch of mage changes. A few thoughts:

I would recommend changing the fire bolt to frost bolt (just swap the element, leave the stats as is). This gives the mage all the base elements as options, instead of doubling up on fire.

Acid Spray seems kinda useless? Difficult to cast, short range, low damage? Comparing to Fireball and Manabolt, I think it needs to do about twice its current damage to be competitive. (L/2)d8 would put it as slightly stronger than fireball, compensating the range penalty.

I'm not sure if I agree with electric arc damaging items. It's trying to be exactly like a beam except this one gotcha.

[Tibarius]

druids & shapechange

New builds are up on the build page, with the main feature being the new druid class.

Cool stuff - i like that theme. But i think like mages druids need a level 1 spell that makes it possible to gain xp at least.

Nothing about playing carefully - but if white worms and rock lizards chase you through level 1 that's somehow feeling wrong to me. *laugh*

So here is my proposal ... remove the whip as starting equipment and give druid as level 1 spell

'burning hands', cost 1 mana, +1 light (per hand, makes +2 light), and 2d4 fire damage if they touch (melee attack) an enemy. Short duration, so that you basically have to cast it new before every fight.

As alternative ... give them level 1 shape like cat maybe ... sneaky and fast and with lower damage than fox, or move fox to level 1 and give them something stronger at level 11.

Testplaying arcane now.

P.S.
(1) Can we please switch electric arc and phase door - so that the keys for casting phase door 'mac' do not need to be changed?
(2) Would you please add the damage information on the spells like electric arc? Thanks! It makes feedback so much easier if you can rely on information rather than having to guess what the spell does.
(3) Can we please change the book color? nature / druid should be green, and holy gets light and should be yellow and can arcane please get azure? Thx!
(4) For mages it would make sense to have wands equiped into hands, instead of weapons. Maybe one wand of magic missile into the starting gear of a mage instead of dagger? Using an equipped wand/stave could be a new command: u(se) for using staves from the inventory and a(im) to use an equipped wand. Mid-term we would need new wand artifacts then - but that makes much more sense than wielding the weapons as mage.
(5) to not have too many classes (which makes it hard to make them distinguishable) maybe we could call the opposite of holy magic "shadow magic". Then the rogue could be the shadow magic hybrid class and necromant the pure caster class. They could get haste self as unique magic.

[Tibarius]

arcane mage

died at CL 19 DL 26

A phase spider summoned me into a mix of monsters and since i got no teleport there was no escape possible.

You cannot target monsters which are out of light range. So Infravision suddenly becomes very strong for the mage so that he can target monsters out of the usually 1-2 light range from torch or lantern.

Also disarming of traps is not possible anymore making movement often dangerous if you want to move over traps. (I also dislike that in 4.1.2 because traps are only temporarily removed, that is most of the time useless).

Electric Arc is (almost) useless and coule be removed.

Compared with the 'old' mage its just a useless nerved version. Sure the spells might be from a fantasy point of view more sensefull aranged, but it doesn't make any fun playing anymore.

[Derakon]

You should be able to target tiles anywhere, by hitting 'o' while in target mode.

And you may want to carry a Staff of Teleportation to deal with situations like the phase spiders.

[Nick]

OK, new builds are up on the build page with improvements to spell info and tweaks to new mages and druids. I meant also to improve mage recharging; that will have to come next time now.

I would recommend changing the fire bolt to frost bolt (just swap the element, leave the stats as is). This gives the mage all the base elements as options, instead of doubling up on fire.

OK, done.

Acid Spray seems kinda useless? Difficult to cast, short range, low damage? Comparing to Fireball and Manabolt, I think it needs to do about twice its current damage to be competitive. (L/2)d8 would put it as slightly stronger than fireball, compensating the range penalty.

Done, plus made it range 4.

I'm not sure if I agree with electric arc damaging items. It's trying to be exactly like a beam except this one gotcha.

I think it's actually good. The idea is that it has more damage than magic missile, and always beams, but has drawbacks - extra mana, monsters may resist, and it may destroy items.

'burning hands', cost 1 mana, +1 light (per hand, makes +2 light), and 2d4 fire damage if they touch (melee attack) an enemy. Short duration, so that you basically have to cast it new before every fight.

As alternative ... give them level 1 shape like cat maybe ... sneaky and fast and with lower damage than fox, or move fox to level 1 and give them something stronger at level 11.

Both good ideas. I've gone with moving fox shapechange to CL1 and tweaking it a bit; the burning hands idea fits with plans I have for more temporary melee effects (like current monster confusion).

(1) Can we please switch electric arc and phase door - so that the keys for casting phase door 'mac' do not need to be changed?
(2) Would you please add the damage information on the spells like electric arc? Thanks! It makes feedback so much easier if you can rely on information rather than having to guess what the spell does.

Done and done.

(3) Can we please change the book color? nature / druid should be green, and holy gets light and should be yellow and can arcane please get azure? Thx!

Green for druids was my preference too, but I didn't want to frighten people with too much change

What do people think? Personally I'd keep red for arcane, green for nature, yellow/orange for holy and purple for death.

(4) For mages it would make sense to have wands equiped into hands, instead of weapons. Maybe one wand of magic missile into the starting gear of a mage instead of dagger? Using an equipped wand/stave could be a new command: u(se) for using staves from the inventory and a(im) to use an equipped wand. Mid-term we would need new wand artifacts then - but that makes much more sense than wielding the weapons as mage.

I think weapon damage is too important in Angband, even for mages.

(5) to not have too many classes (which makes it hard to make them distinguishable) maybe we could call the opposite of holy magic "shadow magic". Then the rogue could be the shadow magic hybrid class and necromant the pure caster class. They could get haste self as unique magic.

I actually like "light magic" and "shadow magic" for the spiritual realms - what do others think?

Compared with the 'old' mage its just a useless nerved version. Sure the spells might be from a fantasy point of view more sensefull aranged, but it doesn't make any fun playing anymore.

Yes, I'm thinking about that. Watch this space.

[Derakon]

Green for druids was my preference too, but I didn't want to frighten people with too much change

What do people think? Personally I'd keep red for arcane, green for nature, yellow/orange for holy and purple for death.

If you're going to change things, go big or go home. I'm not a huge fan of red mostly because of red/green colorblindness (not that I have it, but it's the most common type IIRC), so orange/blue/green/purple sounds pretty good to me.

I actually like "light magic" and "shadow magic" for the spiritual realms - what do others think?

Given the in-universe associations between Eru frickin' Illuvatar and Melkor, Lord of Darkness, I'd say you're on pretty good standing there.

[Tibarius]

Thank you Derakon

You should be able to target tiles anywhere, by hitting 'o' while in target mode.

And you may want to carry a Staff of Teleportation to deal with situations like the phase spiders.

Thank you Derakon, but actually i am no newbie to this game. But i take it that your intentions were helpfull!

I know that you can hit spaces with free target mode activated by 'o'. But since you can't light room / corridors you can't target correctly. So you either cast detect / fire / detect / fire or you guess where the monster moved to if you cannot kill it with the first shot, what is seldomly the case.

The character had not enough gold yet to buy a stave of teleportation (which is mostly around 2.7 K gold).