Class/magic feature branch

[Tibarius]

The Detection and information suite of spells seems somewhat weak there. I imagine it's still supposed to be one of the great strengths of the class, along with teleportation/control effects and recharging? If so, the Detection spell is extremely handy for a lot of reasons, as is magic mapping and Enlightenment, which don't really belong in the Priest set anyway.

I don't think so. Detection is basically find stairs, traps & doors + detect treasures + reveal monsters. That is not missing.

1. The number of books was reduced, wrong way. To make mages more interesting the best thing would have been to find new spells alone, not bundled into spell books.
2. 30 50 70 level deepth, does not fit to the exponential power curve
3. the attack spells do not develop exponential anymore
4. the mage lost strong defensive powers with light, stone to mud and haste self which is also a very important offensive power (because the faster you can kill monsters the less threat they are)
5. Nick wants the mage to have reasons to use wands, staves and orbs more? Great ... make them interesting, more powerfull than spells of the corresponding character level, give them spells that are not available in the spellbooks but i prefer to play without them - too much hazzle. The new mage is not playable only with spellbooks anymore. That does ruin the class for me.

Edit: I still think that the magic realm overwork does make sense and offers the chance to make the class more interesting. But just nerving does not make the gameplay more interesting. I would like to point out that my emotions are in no way ment as criticism to your work Nick. Being maintainer is work and does little gain besides if you like being maintaner.

[Philip]

It is missing. There are several advantages to having it packed up in one spell. First, you save several turns at the start of a level, or after a teleport, even though the most important information (reveal monsters) can be found in one. This results in a situation where the way to get all the information you get from Detection (I forget if it gives fuzzy object detection or not but let's say it doesn't) is to cast reveal monsters to be safe, then to cast those spells, and then cast reveal monsters again, to know the positions of monsters relative to the other information, which fortunately sticks around. And even then you're missing magic mapping (quite handy information, and even if it's available on devices, it feels odd to force mages to use them for this purpose). There are other information powers that I would understand mage not having (temporary ESP as a buff, which seems more a Druid thing), but Magic Mapping and full Detection (with fuzzy object detection?) seem quite important to me. I would appreciate Enlightenment too, but if that is supposed to be rare then I understand. Just take it off Priests when you get around to them.

As to your other complaints, perhaps the issue is that your preferred playstyle will move to another class? I imagine powerful direct damage spells will be more a Necromancer thing (perhaps a spell to regenerate mana could help there?).

As for the defensive power loss, I can't help but notice that light is an effect available on one of the early rods (a slot is an investment, perhaps, but those rods are good enough against orcs to be worth carrying anyway), stone to mud is available on a reasonably early wand, and haste self is (technically) available on a staff. To me, those feel like quite a decent reason to use devices more.

[Nick]

+ frost bolt removed (so that magic missile must alst way longer than CL 7)

There was basically a progression through all the bolt spells as a fairly low level mage, where you ended up just using Acid Bolt. I thought Frost Bolt wasn't really adding anything, and playtesting has seemed to me to confirm that.

+ fire bolt damage stayed same, but mana cost increased from 3 to 5

It's actually increased in damage - possibly the mana cost should be 4 or even 3, though

+ most important mid level spell acid beam was removed to acid spray which is much less usefull

Well, it was Acid Bolt - which sometimes beamed. This is less useful in that it is shorter range, but more in that it can always hit multiple targets. I possibly reduced the damage a bit much.

+ haste self was removed

I'm still undecided what to do about this - I want to play a character a decent way through and see how they do. Certainly other classes can do without it.

+ stone to mud was removed

Yes, thematically, and wands are available.

+ light and spear of light was removed

Again, all the light stuff goes to priests, devices are fine here too.

what do you have in mind as compensation

No XP penalty

The Detection and information suite of spells seems somewhat weak there. I imagine it's still supposed to be one of the great strengths of the class, along with teleportation/control effects and recharging? If so, the Detection spell is extremely handy for a lot of reasons, as is magic mapping and Enlightenment, which don't really belong in the Priest set anyway.

Yes, I think you're probably right.

I need to emphasise that this is not at all final. It needs to be tested, tweaked and refined. I have played a test character to CL16 and DL16 without too much trouble; the first two books are looking OK so far. We'll see how it continues.

[Derakon]

I think there's plenty of room for a class that has lots of magic but bad detection. In fact I'd like to see some experimentation with more classes that have no detection whatsoever outside of devices. That's probably the biggest weakness of the warrior, who overcomes that weakness through devices and big HP pools, but there must surely be other ways to make such a "blind" class viable.

[Thraalbee]

Ironman class

Thank you Nick and all contibutors! I love this branch and encourage challenging even things we take for granted are already ideal.
---
Since I only play ironman outside competitions I have my own set of things I'd like to see.
My current project is a new class named "Ironman" but still plays as "New Mage" for now.

The idea is a class that is intended for ironman game only -- no shops, no recall, no going up stairs -- and optimized in a way to:

1. give some love to ironman games, we have not seen development here for ages
2. enforce a varied play style in each game, can't rely on just one or two of melee, ranged, stealth, arcane and holy
3. eliminate scumming
4. allow über spells like ?banish, ?mass banish and ?destruct to stay but at a very high cost

The BIG changes to normal vanilla are

1. Class is a hybrid arcane + holy caster with decent stealth and so-so melee and ranged
2. No HP regeneration
3. No SP regeneration
4. (Near) fixed total mana (set to start at 4000 for initial play testing, not sure what is ideal)
5. Huge nerf to potion and staff healing -- all max out at !ccw level
6. Huge nerf to potion and staff mana restore -- all max out at 25 sp but may be eliminated entirely later
7. Useful staring gear: dagger + sling + 15 pebbles + first book + 10x !ccw + 5x ?Id + 10x ?Phase

Balancing this will be difficult but I have started to play test a bit.

The early game is interesting
- You have to sneak, detect, avoid and ?phase a lot
--- No magic missile or attack wand from start and only 15 pebbles to your sling
--- Stealth for this class is closer to Rogue than Mage, you'll look for stealth boosts too I guess
--- Detection is nearly free
--- Every HP of damage you sustain will cost you dearly unless your !clw stack is extreme

Mid game
- All your five books are common from level 10 so you'll be able to play more freely pretty soon
- The idea is to encourage a varied game play instead of static tactics
--- But melee only is expensive - if you get hurt you'll have to spend mana to heal
--- And if you kill with spells, you also spend mana
--- Ranged will be important, but you are NOT a ranger, so it's not that effective either

Vaults
- Vaults are abundant in vanilla, but will be expensive for this class
- You CAN use ?banish and ?mass banish, but they draw a LOT of mana, so only for a few vaults

End Game
- You will lose more than you gain from gathering a zillion potions and scrolls for the final fights
- If your mana is out, you are probably toast! The big heal spells are the only way to restore more than a !ccw would
- I'll see if I can add a spell that transfers blood to mana, e.g. 50 permanent HP less for restore of 250 SP
- Not enough mana to take out Morgoth with spells if that's what you also used to kill his minions!
Ideally, your melee weapons should degrade with use so that this goes both ways.

First ROUGH draft of spells (player starts with only the first book and no gold, i.e. no healing except 10x !clw)

[Essential Arcana]
(1) Find Traps, Doors & Stairs [1 mana]
(1) Detect Monsters [1 mana]
(10) Sense Invisible [8 mana]
(15) Reveal Monsters [6 mana]
(20) Detection [10 mana]
(1) Phase Door [1 mana]
(7) Teleport Self [6 mana]
(10) Phase Door II [2 mana] - doubled distance
(20) Teleport Other [10 mana]
(28) Teleport Level [17 mana]

[Holy Assistance]
(1) Remove Fear [2 mana]
(3) Call Light [2 mana]
(7) Satisfy Hunger [5 mana]
(5) Neutralize Poison [6 mana]
(7) Remove Curse [6 mana]
(25) Dispel Curse [40 mana]

[Holy Embrace]
(1) Cure Light Wounds [2 mana]
(5) Cure Serious Wounds [4 mana]
(9) Cure Critical Wounds [7 mana]
(21) Heal [16 mana]
(30) Healing [50 mana]
(35) Restoration [70 mana]
(35) Remembrance [70 mana]
(39) Holy Word [32 mana]

[Magical Tricks and Defence]
(5) Recharging [5 mana]
(10) Identify Rune [7 mana]
(13) Door Creation [9 mana]
(20) Resistance [20 mana]
(32) Shield [24 mana]
-
[Dungeon Control]
(5) Unbarring Ways [6 mana]
(13) Sense Surroundings [10 mana]
(25) Word of Destruction [100 mana]
(30) Banishment [75 mana]
(35) Mass Banishment [75 mana]

[Power and Destruction]
(9) Orb of Draining [7 mana]
(15) Draining spear [10 mana]
(25) Mana Spray [15 mana]
(40) Annihilation [15 mana]
(42) Mana Storm [16 mana]


Thoughts and ideas are very welcome! But NO FLAMES PLEASE -- I'm doing this for myself.
However, if it eventually turns out as I hope, I'll be happy to share

best regards, Mathias

[Philip]

A lot of this (no SP regen, making a balanced playstyle important, the starting gear, and ironman of course) sounds like what Ironband did. Ironband is a great variant, so you're certainly on the right track there. I do not have any ideas of my own, unfortunately - the only gripe with Ironband that I have is that I am bad at it.

[Nick]

The BIG changes to normal vanilla are

1. Class is a hybrid arcane + holy caster with decent stealth and so-so melee and ranged
2. No HP regeneration
3. No SP regeneration
4. (Near) fixed total mana (set to start at 4000 for initial play testing, not sure what is ideal)
5. Huge nerf to potion and staff healing -- all max out at !ccw level
6. Huge nerf to potion and staff mana restore -- all max out at 25 sp but may be eliminated entirely later
7. Useful staring gear: dagger + sling + 15 pebbles + first book + 10x !ccw + 5x ?Id + 10x ?Phase

This is a fascinating idea, so creative. I have questions:

• Do you mean no HP or SP regeneration for the entire game? So you just have to rely on healing potions/devices/spells and !RestoreMana?
• I assume you have had to make C code changes, not just data file changes - is that right?

If that's yes to the second question, it's possible that I will be able to shift more stuff out to the data files so it can be done with no code changes.

[Thraalbee]

1. Yes. You start with 4000 mana and then reduce this with each spell cast. The initial spells cost only 1 to cast so you can spam detection spells. And you need to, at least in the early game. Traps suddenly matter! As does fighting low level monsters. Even 10 hp damage taken early will cost a healing pot pretty soon. "Big" spells are very expensive though. Rather that than nerf eg banish/m banish effect

2. No regen needs commenting two lines of code.
Start with 4000 sp and setting player->msp to 4000 also needs small code change. Would probably be easy to parameterize

[PowerWyrm]

About the new spells:

- fire ball does 2 damage at level 6 -- basically a waste of mana until level 12 or so --> remove the flat -10 damage
- mana storm had its level upped without changing the base fail rate -> 23% fail at level 50 (with max INT) -> decrease the base fail rate

[PowerWyrm]

Is Acid Spray supposed to be a 3-square long beam? From the description, I thought it would be a small "breath" (arc effect), but the breath effect never triggers (it's just a "beam").

[PowerWyrm]

Mana Bolt is ridiculously overpowered: level 25, cost of 8 mana, 250 average damage at level 50 with 0% fail. This makes Mana Storm even more useless. Unfortunately, it is also the only spell to help leveling with magic, so unless you have the book, you're stuck with using a shooter (note: this was also mostly the case with regular mages).

To fix that:
- add a Lesser Mana Bolt spell that does (clvl/2)d8 damage at level 25 (see: Gauntlets of Eol -- mana bolt for 12d8 damage), but put it in an earlier book
- change Mana Bolt to Greater Mana Bolt, lower the damage a bit (for ex: clvld8), increase mana cost (for ex: 12 mana), put it later (for ex: level 35)
- decrease the fail rate of Mana Storm (23% is too high, it was 14% before)

Lesser Mana Bolt caps at roughly 100 damage, so it'll be your midgame leveling spell. Greater Mana Bolt caps at roughly 200 damage, it'll be your endgame single target spell (if you want higher single target damage, you'll use wands of annihilation for 300+ damage with MD boost). Mana Storm will be your endgame multitarget spell.

[Tibarius]

damage level

I disagree to your analysis PowerWyrm.

How is the damage calculation done for each class? "Benchmark" is the warrior class in my eyes with 6 attackes per turn and an estimated damage of 100 per hit making it 600 damage per attack sequence (but which can be exceptional higher with a mace of disruption).

I would define the goal that all classes should deliver around the same maximum damage versus Morgoth, because i cannot see why different classes should deliver different damage in the end fight.

So that makes it:
Mana Storm 500-600 total damage
Greater Mana Bolt 200-250 damage
Mana Bolt 100-120 damage
Fire Bolt 60-70 damage
Frost Bolt 30-40 damage
Magic Missle 10-20 damage

Something like that would be an exponential damage increase, always around x2 better damage.

Edit: I agree that a CL 50 mage with MaxInt should have 0% fail for ManaStorm too! Everything else sucks from player point of view (and would be nothing else than an average damage reduction).

[Tibarius]

HP / SP regeneration

This is a fascinating idea, so creative. I have questions:

• Do you mean no HP or SP regeneration for the entire game? So you just have to rely on healing potions/devices/spells and !RestoreMana?
• I assume you have had to make C code changes, not just data file changes - is that right?

If that's yes to the second question, it's possible that I will be able to shift more stuff out to the data files so it can be done with no code changes.

Please - keep the game mechanics alike for different sorts of birth setups. An ironman game is basically nothing else than a game with a certain set of birth options.

Nerving HP and SP regeneration is AGAIN the totally wrong way to solve this. And please keep in mind that Relying on consumeables can increase game fun for player which like that, but also dramatically reduce fun for players like me who just like to gather their equipment and don't want to hazzle around with a mega inventory (which usually happens anyway because of different weapon / equipment flags, healings, support rods/staves etc.).

We do not need to transform Angband into another game, the goal should be to reshape the details to increase fun for all classes (which is usually connected with a certain playing style).

[Tibarius]

ironman class

Thank you Nick and all contibutors! I love this branch and encourage challenging even things we take for granted are already ideal.
---
Since I only play ironman outside competitions I have my own set of things I'd like to see.
My current project is a new class named "Ironman" but still plays as "New Mage" for now.

The idea is a class that is intended for ironman game only -- no shops, no recall, no going up stairs -- and optimized in a way to:

1. give some love to ironman games, we have not seen development here for ages
2. enforce a varied play style in each game, can't rely on just one or two of melee, ranged, stealth, arcane and holy
3. eliminate scumming
4. allow über spells like ?banish, ?mass banish and ?destruct to stay but at a very high cost

The BIG changes to normal vanilla are

1. Class is a hybrid arcane + holy caster with decent stealth and so-so melee and ranged
2. No HP regeneration
3. No SP regeneration
4. (Near) fixed total mana (set to start at 4000 for initial play testing, not sure what is ideal)
5. Huge nerf to potion and staff healing -- all max out at !ccw level
6. Huge nerf to potion and staff mana restore -- all max out at 25 sp but may be eliminated entirely later
7. Useful staring gear: dagger + sling + 15 pebbles + first book + 10x !ccw + 5x ?Id + 10x ?Phase

Balancing this will be difficult but I have started to play test a bit.

The early game is interesting
- You have to sneak, detect, avoid and ?phase a lot
--- No magic missile or attack wand from start and only 15 pebbles to your sling
--- Stealth for this class is closer to Rogue than Mage, you'll look for stealth boosts too I guess
--- Detection is nearly free
--- Every HP of damage you sustain will cost you dearly unless your !clw stack is extreme

Mid game
- All your five books are common from level 10 so you'll be able to play more freely pretty soon
- The idea is to encourage a varied game play instead of static tactics
--- But melee only is expensive - if you get hurt you'll have to spend mana to heal
--- And if you kill with spells, you also spend mana
--- Ranged will be important, but you are NOT a ranger, so it's not that effective either

Vaults
- Vaults are abundant in vanilla, but will be expensive for this class
- You CAN use ?banish and ?mass banish, but they draw a LOT of mana, so only for a few vaults

End Game
- You will lose more than you gain from gathering a zillion potions and scrolls for the final fights
- If your mana is out, you are probably toast! The big heal spells are the only way to restore more than a !ccw would
- I'll see if I can add a spell that transfers blood to mana, e.g. 50 permanent HP less for restore of 250 SP
- Not enough mana to take out Morgoth with spells if that's what you also used to kill his minions!
Ideally, your melee weapons should degrade with use so that this goes both ways.

First ROUGH draft of spells (player starts with only the first book and no gold, i.e. no healing except 10x !clw)

[Essential Arcana]
(1) Find Traps, Doors & Stairs [1 mana]
(1) Detect Monsters [1 mana]
(10) Sense Invisible [8 mana]
(15) Reveal Monsters [6 mana]
(20) Detection [10 mana]
(1) Phase Door [1 mana]
(7) Teleport Self [6 mana]
(10) Phase Door II [2 mana] - doubled distance
(20) Teleport Other [10 mana]
(28) Teleport Level [17 mana]

[Holy Assistance]
(1) Remove Fear [2 mana]
(3) Call Light [2 mana]
(7) Satisfy Hunger [5 mana]
(5) Neutralize Poison [6 mana]
(7) Remove Curse [6 mana]
(25) Dispel Curse [40 mana]

[Holy Embrace]
(1) Cure Light Wounds [2 mana]
(5) Cure Serious Wounds [4 mana]
(9) Cure Critical Wounds [7 mana]
(21) Heal [16 mana]
(30) Healing [50 mana]
(35) Restoration [70 mana]
(35) Remembrance [70 mana]
(39) Holy Word [32 mana]

[Magical Tricks and Defence]
(5) Recharging [5 mana]
(10) Identify Rune [7 mana]
(13) Door Creation [9 mana]
(20) Resistance [20 mana]
(32) Shield [24 mana]
-
[Dungeon Control]
(5) Unbarring Ways [6 mana]
(13) Sense Surroundings [10 mana]
(25) Word of Destruction [100 mana]
(30) Banishment [75 mana]
(35) Mass Banishment [75 mana]

[Power and Destruction]
(9) Orb of Draining [7 mana]
(15) Draining spear [10 mana]
(25) Mana Spray [15 mana]
(40) Annihilation [15 mana]
(42) Mana Storm [16 mana]


Thoughts and ideas are very welcome! But NO FLAMES PLEASE -- I'm doing this for myself.
However, if it eventually turns out as I hope, I'll be happy to share

best regards, Mathias

A good idea generally - but we mix stuff here again. Currently we should focus on getting the arcane magic branch straight. Then the other three, then fine tuning of spell mana cost / damage etc. And then see that different birth options are still playable.

[Nick]

New builds up, with the following changes:

• Lightning beam replaced with Electric Arc, finite length (increasing with character level) beam spell, changed to level 2, 2 mana
• Recharge moved into second book
• Fire Ball damage amended as per PowerWyrm
• Acid Spray made a wider cone
• New spell in 3rd book, Tap Magical Energy, turns staff and wand charged into mana
• Detection spell in 4th book
• Mana Bolt made like PowerWyrm's Lesser Mana Bolt
• Thrust Away made like PW's Greater Mana Bolt
• Mana Storm fail rate adjusted
• New spell in 5th book, Mana Channel, makes spellcasting temporarily twice as fast (like extra shots are done, substitute for haste)
• Dungeon books start dropping at 30, 40, 60 instead of 30, 50, 70

My test character is now DL26, CL22, and definitely not underpowered.