Class/magic feature branch

[Tibarius]

That seems to be Nick's goal. To make each magical realm more distinct, they need to have things they can't do. Hopefully each pure caster ends up feeling like they're really good at some things, can do other things decently, and have to rely on devices or do without for everything else.

That is a very risky route ... as long time player i noticed that kind of development in a lot of games which 'dried away' afterwards. If the player loose the fun they stop playing, which reduces playerbase which reduces possible maintainer interest (minimum playerbase required to keep a game alive).

WHY should mages can't do certain things? That is a limitation of the player (which is not required).

All the mage players are used to this stuff and now the 'new mage' is just a drastically reduced assembly of spells which lacks a lot. WE can come up with other solutions.

For example: we could do it that way that all mage classes can learn all available spells, BUT they have drawbacks in spells not fitting their main realm, like double cost, longer casting time or the like.

To Derakon's hint to make classes distinct:
Stone To Mud is probably the most often used spell (after the different attack spells), so solving that over wand is basically a no-go for me.

[Tibarius]

free slots

Reducing the number of books (as is in the plans) also frees up one or two inventory slots.

That is the wrong direction!

Mages (all spellcasters) main source of power should be their spells. Having the spells reduced does reduce the possibilities. MORE spells would be the way to develop the game. And to ensure that not every game is basically the same like the last game it would be required to have different spells each game you play!

And how could that be implemented? Make town spellbooks empty books for around 5-6 spells that can be inscribed.

Make all spells available on scrolls, and once you find a scroll you can either inscribe the spell into your book (if the magic realm fits).

Currently the game design is basically trying to make each class having a unique playing style. We should watch out that the four mages of the different magic realms do not play identically in the end! Because then three of the four classes would be obsolete.

[Tibarius]

unique characters

The 'best' way is in my eyes the freedom of the player to choose what he likes. That makes the game the most fun for him, and why should we want to limit that?

So what about the following idea? Since intelligence already is the base for the mana points calculation there is not realy the need to make the number of available spells too depending on INT.

A mage could learn one spell at level 1, and then a new one each time he leveld up two times. So at CL 3,5,7,9,11 ...

That makes a total of 25 spells at CL 50 (5 books a 5 spells).

Each mage class can learn either from the mage house in town, or of scrolls, or of unique defined items like rune stones, magic orbs or whatever we call the items which holds possible new spells.

THIS change is much much more important than the distinction of the mage class into the four discussed realms (even tho i think that makes sense and adds to the flavor or the game).

After thinking about it, i am realy pro for the idea to just keep ONE mage class, but to allow that class to either learn spells from all four magic realms or focus on one of the four realms.

argument: In the end all four pure caster classes will basically play in the same way. They get a collection of utility spells and will require a set of different powerfull attack spells. But they will all be weak at melee combat and so the playing styles will not cover the same spells but basically be very similar in the end i guess.

So it throw my hat into the ring to just keep one mage class but think about how we could develop a game mechanic to
a) allow the player to choose the spells he learns
b) have it a drawback to split all your spells over different realms

[debo]

It might be neat to make the mage class like the grey-mage in poscheng, where it can learn a limited number of spells (10?) from any realm. There could be an extra bonus where focusing on only spells from one or two realms gives you some kind of boost for specializing.

[fph]

Stone To Mud is probably the most often used spell (after the different attack spells), so solving that over wand is basically a no-go for me.

Wow I use it a lot less often than that. I think I use it less than the detection spells, phase door, and probably even create doors. I'm no pro though, maybe I'm just doing it wrong.

[Tibarius]

create door

Wow I use it a lot less often than that. I think I use it less than the detection spells, phase door, and probably even create doors. I'm no pro though, maybe I'm just doing it wrong.

Heh ... in what situations do you cast create doors? Basically that is one of the spells i never use.

[Tibarius]

Dive fast, die young, leave a high-CHA corpse.

Just cool

[Ingwe Ingweron]

Heh ... in what situations do you cast create doors? Basically that is one of the spells i never use.

Although I don't use create doors all that often, there are many who use it quite regularly. Useful for: upon level arrival - giving a little extra time to examine the situation; to cut-off line-of-sight; and as a bunker from which to fire-off ranged attacks and spells.

[Sky]

I wish there was a "create rock" spell, but it would probaby be overpowered...

[Derakon]

I wish there was a "create rock" spell, but it would probaby be overpowered...

Speaking from experience in variants that had such spells, yes, it would be. Being able to create rock allows you to selectively entomb monsters, which makes it much easier to isolate them and either ignore them or deal with them one-on-one. It's also an easy and very safe escape: you just need to create a single tile of distance between you and the monster, and you can create a wall that they can't get around, giving you plenty of time to rest, drink potions, etc. Then as soon as you're ready, you drop the wall (possibly from a distance with Stone to Mud) and the monster's there to continue the fight.

[Tibarius]

rune of protection

Don't we have already an almost similar spell with rune of protection? I wouldn't say that this spell is overpowered, because of tremendous mana costs.

It is not permanent, because it can be broken, it is almost like a temporary rock, no?

[Derakon]

The differences between Rune and a wall are:

* Rune is temporary -- very temporary against most enemies you'd care to use it on.
* Rune can only be placed underfoot.
* Rune does not block spells or LOS.
* Rune does not affect monster pathing (whereas monsters will attempt to path around walls)

A spell that made a single "opaque" (blocks spells) rune, which could still be broken by monsters, in an adjacent unoccupied tile might be interesting. I don't have a feel for how it would compare to Create Doors (which covers all LOS but is extremely temporary) and the existing rune spell, but I suspect it would still be overpowered.

[Tibarius]

playstyle

That's a good point. Currently two-thirds of the spells in the new mage dungeon books are not available anywhere else.

I disagree here. Orb of draining is a unique attack spell - true. But it's effect is basically the same like the mages attacks spells, just better for evil targets. Casting Orb of Draining in a row to kill a monster is basically the same as casting acid bolt a couple of times.

Another point that needs considering ... collecting potions of stat raise is basically the same as grinding XP around DL 40 until you have the relevant stats maxed out. I think it would be much better to remove stat raise potions
so that the initial point distribution has a much higher impact. It is better to increase the stat boni (and their maximums) on items instead.

[Tibarius]

rogue class ?

Someone said that the 'natural' hybrid class of a necromant would be a dark (or death) knight (or antipaladin). After thinking about it, i consider that basically right.

But what about the rogue class then? Is that a unique class like warrior then?

Hmm, and what will the difference in playing style be between a rogue and a death knight?

The more i think about those questions the more i think we should not add new classes ... but look out to update the magic system so that the player somehow can choose spells from certain realms or has advantages and drawbacks dependant on his favorite magic realm.

[Tibarius]

5 books only

I thought a lot about the level and spell distribution of the new mage. I cannot see a smooth exponential power curve - neither in spells nor in books.

I think that is a very important topic Nick, would you please be so kind to post a short summary about what your plans are here? I mean 2 books in shop and 3 in the dungeon ... (besides the fact that i don't like it) how does that fit to the exponential character attack power development?