Issues on current master

[Sky]

Before the last randart patch, each standart would "morph" into something else, but would keep a power level similar to the original piece. So you could wind up with Bladeturner on your head, Mediator on your back, Ringil on your neck, and so on.

Now, each slot has a power curve, so that the power level is appropriate for that slot. For example, cloak slots are weaker than armor slots.

[fph]

Coming in the next version: diminishing returns on +dam modifiers.

[Estie]

@Estie--I suspect there was a time when you didn't dive as fast, so you explored more of the artifact space. That said, now that Nick has normalized the power curve for each slot, getting the specifics of each slot is significantly harder. So yes, this means getting damage on rings, gloves, and shields right, and picking weapons with the right damage dice and weight. Getting Bard turned into an x2 sling actually matters now. It didn't with the old randart model.

What do you mean with "normalizing the power curve for each slot" ?

The problem is that it is done only for artifacts, so if there are no artifacts with damage, you use ego items with damage and that defeats the purpose of random items.

[Pete Mack]

@Estie--I suspect there was a time when you didn't dive as fast, so you explored more of the artifact space. That said, now that Nick has normalized the power curve for each slot, getting the specifics of each slot is significantly harder. So yes, this means getting damage on rings, gloves, and shields right, and picking weapons with the right damage dice and weight. Getting Bard turned into an x2 sling actually matters now. It didn't with the old randart model.

[Estie]

I think the problem is caused by the absence of to-damage modifiers on randarts.

Damage modifiers (this includes extra attacks, but they are very rare) are the best option for each slot because all other modifiers are capped/on diminishing returns. Strictly speaking, even standart rings of power are not top because, given everything else is covered, a damage ring is better. However, it is very likely that a ring of power, while losing damage to the damage ring, opens up some other option, for example allow you to use Gorlim by providing telepathy.
Remove all standarts with damage modifiers and you get the situation as it is now with randarts.

So, why are there no or so very few randarts with +damage ? Is that intended ? Not having one of the best modifiers available for randarts is, I think, the main reason they are bad.

Making damage more common again would probably restore the situation from before Nick´s randart changes, however I am not really happy with that because many items are still ego and therefor known before the game starts.

There was a time when artifacts were substantially better than egos and you ended up with them in almost every slot. Nick said in another post that that was where he wanted to head - by making egos worse. Otherwise, if egos make up ~1/2 of the set - as it is now - it would be great if they got randomized in some way, too.

[Ingwe Ingweron]

With standarts, in the endgame I'm often using ego armor, principal weapon or launcher, or even all of the above. True, it's even more likely with randarts, but I think it might be because it provides some consistency of control over the resistance holes that is absent without some lucky randarts.

[Sky]

Well, i never did get a full answer on my "how are artifacts generated?" thread, but there's still something missing here.

First, i play with preserve on. You can lose artifacts permanently, but you should be able to otherwise get all those artifacts which the RNG generates.

And even if you do rush, the last 30 or so DL will most likely have 3+ greater vaults filled to the brim with great artifacts.
(Rings of power, for example, are waaay more common now)

I suspect the issue isn't that the RNG does not generate enough randarts, but rather that it is generating them, but Estie is not finding them.

[Derakon]

Im not sure what you mean. I play randarts only and find them completely adequate, with most runs using 10/12 artis, except 1 RoS and Elven boots. Specifically, lights and amulets tend to be better, and i almost always find weapons better than MoD.

I suspect that you and Estie are at pretty close to opposite ends of the spectrum regarding playstyles. Which in turn suggests that the underlying problem here isn't so much "good randarts aren't being produced by the randart generator", it's that they're rare enough that they simply don't show up by the time Estie's ready to win. It's their rarity and power with respect to egos that is at fault, then; if egos are common and powerful (enough to win with) then fast players will end up with mostly egos. If they're common and weak, or rare, then fast players will be forced to slow down, which I suspect they wouldn't really enjoy (because it basically just means more grinding until the RNG deigns to produce the gear you need to progress).

So in short, make randarts more common, I guess?

[Estie]

Im not sure what you mean. I play randarts only and find them completely adequate, with most runs using 10/12 artis, except 1 RoS and Elven boots. Specifically, lights and amulets tend to be better, and i almost always find weapons better than MoD.

I didnt mean to say that I dont find artifacts for all slots, I meant that I dont end up using them. For example there are always rings with stats and resists, but my characters prefer speed and damage rings.

[Huqhox]

Im not sure what you mean. I play randarts only and find them completely adequate, with most runs using 10/12 artis, except 1 RoS and Elven boots. Specifically, lights and amulets tend to be better, and i almost always find weapons better than MoD.

+1 to this. I usually end up with some ego boots for speed as it's not always that a decent speed bonus is given to randart boots, and sometimes a prticular resistance or protections is rare but that's part of the fun

And what the RNG takes away with one roll it gives back with another, it's very rare to not assemble a decent set of randarts

[Sky]

Im not sure what you mean. I play randarts only and find them completely adequate, with most runs using 10/12 artis, except 1 RoS and Elven boots. Specifically, lights and amulets tend to be better, and i almost always find weapons better than MoD.

[Estie]

I have noted the amount of artifacts of my winners in my last 11 games and the average is less than 4 (out of 12 slots).

I am always happy to play new versions, but unless that situation changes substantially there really is no point in playing randart games. So I am waiting for a release where that is expected to change before continuing.

[Nick]

angband-4.0.3-768-gc1d18b2

I am fairly sure it was the latest version when I started the game.

Excellent, the Ring of Firmament change (which should improve randart jewellery) and several other changes which could have fixed your crash problem have happened since then.

As for artifact torches, I'm inclined to give them a bit more of a run.

[Estie]

Right, thanks. Am I right in thinking this is not the latest nightly? There have been a lot of new builds recently...

angband-4.0.3-768-gc1d18b2

I am fairly sure it was the latest version when I started the game.

As for artifact torches, maybe make torches not eligible for randart lights ?
The lantern´s radius 2 light is already less then the standarts and radius 1 light is painfull. Also, while I find artifact lights constantly, I never find any torches even though they exist - my last game had 3 of them, no other artifact light, and I never saw an artifact torch. Unless the RNG messes with me, it seems that artifact torches are rare to spawn for some reason - maybe level cutoff ?

Edit: oh and (+7) is short for (+7, +0) and increases accuracy.

[Sky]

i've seen a few of these:

the Wooden Torch 'Curthil' (+7) <+2> (charging)

what the heck is (+7) ?? damage bonus? hit bonus? swag bonus?