Loving 3.5.0

[Timo Pietilä]

For functionality, I'm actually a fan of the old two-page one with the commands at the bottom - it's clear, and minimises keystrokes.

I concur. Easy, clean, intuitive.

[Nick]

I'm not sure what Nick's feelings are on store UI, but I dislike it greatly.

For functionality, I'm actually a fan of the old two-page one with the commands at the bottom - it's clear, and minimises keystrokes. That said, I don't really hate the current one either.

Something like the object knowledge screen might be nice.

I'd be interested to hear ideas.

[Kilumanjaro]

I think the problem with the store interface is we haven't found one that is satisfactory for everyone. If you have a specific UI implementation that you think is ideal, please post it. I'm not sure what Nick's feelings are on store UI, but I dislike it greatly.

Since you insist...
I'd like to see how it works for the items's letter to immediately bring up the (I)nspect screen, with options listed for "Buy one", "Buy all", and "Buy some" with a further prompt for qty. That way most transactions can be done in 2 or 3 keystrokes - equal to or better than current. Translates nicely to mouse interface too, for people like me that play one-handed. (gotta hold on to my drink, after all)

[fizzix]

'She' actually...

Yes, that is what I meant - house and stores use a, c, f, h etc. My muscle memory is to go p, a, 2 then p, b, 2 etc not p, a, 2, then p, c, 2 etc.

I think the problem with the store interface is we haven't found one that is satisfactory for everyone. If you have a specific UI implementation that you think is ideal, please post it. I'm not sure what Nick's feelings are on store UI, but I dislike it greatly.

[Maddz]

I think he means that objects in the house are not assigned all the letters of the alphabet, but only a subset of them. OTOH the inventory window uses almost all letters.

'She' actually...

Yes, that is what I meant - house and stores use a, c, f, h etc. My muscle memory is to go p, a, 2 then p, b, 2 etc not p, a, 2, then p, c, 2 etc.

[fizzix]

I think he means that objects in the house are not assigned all the letters of the alphabet, but only a subset of them. OTOH the inventory window uses almost all letters.

oh, that's because it removes the letters that are used for commands. We should definitely look at overhauling the store/house interface. I don't think anyone ever has been satisfied with how it works.

[fph]

Hate non-contiguous house and store slots; what's the point when your inventory slots are contiguous???

What do you mean by non-contiguous?

I think he means that objects in the house are not assigned all the letters of the alphabet, but only a subset of them. OTOH the inventory window uses almost all letters.

[Malak Darkhunter]

I've frequently had this feeling when I come back to V from O/FA - and yet it doesn't seem to translate into wins...

For me, It's overconfidence because i know exactly what you are talking about, you get lulled into not paying attention. Once I get a surprise death a time or 2 I get my head into the game and there's no reason to not make it deep into the dungeon or win, my problem nowdays is that I get picky on which I want to play or have the most interest in. What the interface looks like( Which I have now got alot of control over since I moved to linux and can compile, using the port I like best). What character selection choices are, what kind of character can I create? This is why I like O/S/FA, there is more character selection and 2 extra realms of magic(Necromancy,Druidic). I honestly believe V should add those realms of magic. Class Abilities....Rogues that can set traps? Awsome!
Also better item descriptions, Vanillas item descriptions are boring, O/FA/S gives you a very detailed item description of what the item actualy looks like, If you don't know what Brigadine armor is, the item description gives you an definition of the item and how its made...this enlightens the player to what your character actually might look like.

[Derakon]

Incidentally, Glaurung breathes poison in Vanilla too, so watch out.

[Nick]

I am used to playing variants honestly like FA,O,and Sang, sometimes I play older versions of Angband like Frog-knows or 2.7.8-2.8.2 era simply because of the challenge, I don't feel like modern V is much of a challenge

I've frequently had this feeling when I come back to V from O/FA - and yet it doesn't seem to translate into wins...

[fizzix]

Hate no regain stat potions (and the juggle stat potions - they're completely pointless IMO)

I was skeptical about this at first, but I actually really like the recharge on level up. The big problem with the old way was it slowed down the early game, because stat drains early were a pain. Now it only gives a danger in the late game.

Hate non-contiguous house and store slots; what's the point when your inventory slots are contiguous???

What do you mean by non-contiguous?

Less spell books with no unintelligible slots - what's the point of a book where you can only read 2 out of 6 slots (Tenser's Transformations)? I get there's some thematic unity to the various books, but you've got 57 legible spells in 63 slots over 9 books which range from 5 to 9 slots apiece.

I agree on this. I think a spells overhaul is long due.

A bigger home. This is what I really liked about Hengband - you had 4 or 5 pages (if not more - it's been a while and I can't be bothered to fire up the PC to check - it died on the Mac with Mountain Lion) to your home so you weren't making hard choices all the time about what to keep or sell. Heck, you could make it a purchasable thing - add another room for a few million gp. After a while, gold is meaningless in the game anyway - give us something useful to spend it on.

Increasing the home size is a one line change. Unfortunately the display is buggy. My hope is that this becomes another thing we can set in params, so players can alter it as they like.

Spell effects that vary according to your level. So, when you first learn a spell, you get a basic spell. As you increase your level, your spell increases in power; for example, Detect Monsters starts by detecting visible monsters within, say, 50 spaces of your character. Each level you gain after first learning the spell adds another 5 spaces to the range. Once you've added a few levels, the spell starts detecting invisible monsters as well... Offensive spells increase damage and intensity - start with a bolt, move up to a beam and add range. Defensive spells like resists increase amount resisted and duration.

This already happens with damage and duration increases. But I agree that we haven't explored the full range.

Automatic centring of the map when you come to a halt. It's the one thing that really bugs me - if you stop and look around you should be able to see everything that's in your line of sight - but you can't, because it's off-screen. For moving along corridors it make some sense, but for rooms it doesn't. When you enter a room, you should be able to see all of it at once (provided it's lit of course), not only see half of because the other half is off-screen.

You can just use always center. I realize it's not quite what you want, but I'm not sure the effort for a half measure is worth it. I think "center map" is a one key command anyway.

[Maddz]

I have to say have been playing 3.5 since the release and my comments are:

Love the new character options
Hate no regain stat potions (and the juggle stat potions - they're completely pointless IMO)

Love not needing scrolls of *identify*
Hate inventory and house slots being capped at 40

Love 'basic' consumables like standard books being always available
Hate non-contiguous house and store slots; what's the point when your inventory slots are contiguous???

What I'd like to see:

Less spell books with no unintelligible slots - what's the point of a book where you can only read 2 out of 6 slots (Tenser's Transformations)? I get there's some thematic unity to the various books, but you've got 57 legible spells in 63 slots over 9 books which range from 5 to 9 slots apiece.

A bigger home. This is what I really liked about Hengband - you had 4 or 5 pages (if not more - it's been a while and I can't be bothered to fire up the PC to check - it died on the Mac with Mountain Lion) to your home so you weren't making hard choices all the time about what to keep or sell. Heck, you could make it a purchasable thing - add another room for a few million gp. After a while, gold is meaningless in the game anyway - give us something useful to spend it on.

Equipment enchantments. Hengband had the neat idea of smithies etc being able to enhance equipment to a max of +10 (you got +1 every 5 levels). If you wanted more, you had to buy enhancement scrolls. Again, something useful to spend gold on - you could vary the cost according to the level on there already and whether the item is ego or unique or not.

Spell effects that vary according to your level. So, when you first learn a spell, you get a basic spell. As you increase your level, your spell increases in power; for example, Detect Monsters starts by detecting visible monsters within, say, 50 spaces of your character. Each level you gain after first learning the spell adds another 5 spaces to the range. Once you've added a few levels, the spell starts detecting invisible monsters as well... Offensive spells increase damage and intensity - start with a bolt, move up to a beam and add range. Defensive spells like resists increase amount resisted and duration.

Automatic centring of the map when you come to a halt. It's the one thing that really bugs me - if you stop and look around you should be able to see everything that's in your line of sight - but you can't, because it's off-screen. For moving along corridors it make some sense, but for rooms it doesn't. When you enter a room, you should be able to see all of it at once (provided it's lit of course), not only see half of because the other half is off-screen.

[fizzix]

If anybody can provide a level of hidden danger and nasty surprises to the game it is you Nick.
That is my 2 cents worth, I might be in the minority that feels the game is to easy, but there it is anyway.And I'm done.

The game is too easy comment comes up a lot, and it's a hard one to gauge. One of the problems with "making the game harder" is that angband allows you to scum infinitely. There's no hunger clock and the levels are unlimited. This is a design choice. For example, with regard to the potion drop rates, you were always able to go back and scum town for healing potions. You still can. The only change that increasing the drops did was make town scumming unnecessary. This isn't really a difficulty change, it's a "modernization" change. It tries to smooth the gameplay experience and cut out boring grindy things that serve no purpose except to be off-putting. If the game expects you to need 2 CCW a level, it should supply them at that rate.

I think the general idea of a "choose your own pace" is a good one for new players, it really allows someone to get their feet wet and explore the dungeon. It's why I chose angband over the other roguelikes around. However, after you've won a few times, it feels too easy, so you have to set different challenges for yourself. The onus is on you to make the game challenging. Play forced descent + no stores for example, you might find it an interesting game. Part of the goal I have tried to pursue in balance changes is to make sure the default game is suited to the beginner, but make sure that there are new challenges for veteran players to try. Hopefully, we can work on that more in the future.

The easiest versions of angband were probably in the 3.1-3.3 range. In these versions, I would find myself unable to dive fast enough to keep up with the power curve. I was always overpowered! That's not true in 3.4, there's always a stretch where I'm underpowered and have to play very carefully and teeter on the edge of death.

Also its' really hard to compare difficulty of older versions. They had a different mindset to the gameplay, and a lot of UI issues. Just having something like a monster subwindow is significant in making the game easier.

[Malak Darkhunter]

Being an equal opportunity kind of maintainer, I plan to ruin Angband so that everyone hates it.

I am used to playing variants honestly like FA,O,and Sang, sometimes I play older versions of Angband like Frog-knows or 2.7.8-2.8.2 era simply because of the challenge, I don't feel like modern V is much of a challenge, It has a really nice interface even for x11 which I favour more than the other interfaces, but to be honest it feels like a push-over. I am finding tons of cure serious, cure critical wounds potions in abundance, it dosen't matter if I run into grouped uniques(I like grouped uniques, by the way, very nice idea), the dungeon gives enough to the player to make surviving pretty easy. Angband needs hidden dangers, just like the surprise I got playing FA a while back and I died to Glaurung, (never dreamed that he would breathe poison!). If anybody can provide a level of hidden danger and nasty surprises to the game it is you Nick.
That is my 2 cents worth, I might be in the minority that feels the game is to easy, but there it is anyway.And I'm done.

[MattB]

That's just dumb. Let's all hope that that moron never gets to be in charge.

Absolutely!