V 3.5 now in feature freeze

[Timo Pietilä]

2. They have access to a fail-safe Recharging spell, at least for lower-leveled staves.

This brings to my mind something I thought a long time ago but then forgot. How about making some high-level spells not immediate, but more powerful. Spells that require a ritual of some kind (in game terms several player turns). For example Priest Alter Reality could be one of those spells. For mage mass banishment, and maybe also Recharge III? You can make more spells with that in mind. Combat spells could have clvl dependent turn rate like extra shot bows, maybe half-turn for clvl 25 mage MM, one and half for something like rift?

[Pete Mack]

Yeah, but that's us having the spoilers and not the characters.

OK, I have a compromise. Make "full monster knowledge" a birth option, but still keep track of "lore" in case the player wants to change.

Then, to satisfy your ID discovery urge, use something like Sil:
1. Bring back sticky curse.
2. Use "magic glyphs" for ID, so each class of object only needs ID once.
3. put back a few more "bad" potions.
4. Bring back "hidden" random capabilities, but include a glyph for it, so it only is fully IDed either through discovery or an "easy-know" object (or artifact) with the same glyph.

In short, I am really liking the Sil ID model! ... Except for the idiocy of "Perception" applying to fairly obvious glyphs.

[Oramin]

Sure, but I think the point is that people have always had spoilers around as well - and they haven't been considered cheating - and also that in-game spoilers aren't really different from out of game spoilers. People used to use them all the time e.g. when info on what artifacts did was really hard to get to in-game.

Yeah, but that's us having the spoilers and not the characters.

[takkaria]

Hey, if David wants to make a variant where having complete information isn't considered cheating then I don't have a problem with it.

In the context of Vanilla, however, IIRC it has always been a part of the game that, within the context of the game, you don't start with complete information. You explore the dungeon, you identify items, and you learn about monsters by either fighting them or probing them.

Sure, but I think the point is that people have always had spoilers around as well - and they haven't been considered cheating - and also that in-game spoilers aren't really different from out of game spoilers. People used to use them all the time e.g. when info on what artifacts did was really hard to get to in-game.

[Oramin]

Hey, if David wants to make a variant where having complete information isn't considered cheating then I don't have a problem with it.

In the context of Vanilla, however, IIRC it has always been a part of the game that, within the context of the game, you don't start with complete information. You explore the dungeon, you identify items, and you learn about monsters by either fighting them or probing them.

[Patashu]

Maybe a better comparison would be this: Should Nethack be shipped with a built-in list of spoilers, stats and statistics about absolutely everything, prompts before doing something stupid, automatic prompts to do unquestionably good yet obscure and spoilery things when the context is right, etc? It would still be a good, fun game but it would be a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT game going from spoiler-free to automatically spoiled.

[Oramin]

I've got all of the information about every monster's abilities. It's in the source code and spoiler files, I can just read it, this has always been true for the 20+ years I've been playing the game. The question is only about convenience. I am always going to have the same information, it's just a question of how many keystrokes it takes to consult it. Fewer keystrokes is better than more, that's my opinion. Making people do extra keystrokes to do something they are going to do anyway is an outdated concept and I'm glad we are moving beyond that in other areas.

Listen, you aren't going to change how I want to play and I'm not going to change how you want to play. I don't even want to try. Please stop trying to persuade me I should like what you like. I know what I like. Earning the right to use fewer keystrokes when playing, by going through some laborious process, isn't one of the things that I like.

If I'm a "cheater" for turning on full monster memory in my game, and I'm also a "cheater" for tabbing over to my browser window to look at spoilers during the game, then you're also a "cheater" for probing all of the monsters in one game and then consulting that monster memory in the next game. I think none of these are "cheating" (unlike, say, infinite lives). They just reflect different preferences about how to play.

Nope, nice try though. There's a distinction which I already explained.

You just don't want to accept the distinction because to do so would prevent you from getting what you want.


According to your point of view, the fact that I can edit the save file to max my stats means that I should be allowed to set an option in the game to give me max stats without actually earning it in the game and that I shouldn't be listed as a cheater for doing it. I mean, after all, it is just a matter of convenience.

Hell, I can probably get any item in the game just by playing long enough. But it would take a lot fewer keystrokes by just allowing an option to generate any item in the game. Convenience is the key, right, so that shouldn't be cheating either according to your theory.

As for why my probing all the monsters and consulting the memory in later games isn't the same, it is because I actually played the game to get the information which I could then use later.

Incidentally, I'm not trying to persuade to you like the fact that I suspect most people would consider your suggestion to be cheating; I'm trying to explain it to you why I suspect most people would consider it cheating.

Go ahead, keep trying to win an argument with a lawyer.

[DaviddesJ]

I've got all of the information about every monster's abilities. It's in the source code and spoiler files, I can just read it, this has always been true for the 20+ years I've been playing the game. The question is only about convenience. I am always going to have the same information, it's just a question of how many keystrokes it takes to consult it. Fewer keystrokes is better than more, that's my opinion. Making people do extra keystrokes to do something they are going to do anyway is an outdated concept and I'm glad we are moving beyond that in other areas.

Listen, you aren't going to change how I want to play and I'm not going to change how you want to play. I don't even want to try. Please stop trying to persuade me I should like what you like. I know what I like. Earning the right to use fewer keystrokes when playing, by going through some laborious process, isn't one of the things that I like.

If I'm a "cheater" for turning on full monster memory in my game, and I'm also a "cheater" for tabbing over to my browser window to look at spoilers during the game, then you're also a "cheater" for probing all of the monsters in one game and then consulting that monster memory in the next game. I think none of these are "cheating" (unlike, say, infinite lives). They just reflect different preferences about how to play.

[Oramin]

Ok, let me explain this a different way.

Suppose you are playing a game with a persistent map.

In the beginning, in order to have a copy of the map, you have to engage in copious note taking.

Finally somebody decides that is inconvenient and includes an automapping feature so that a record is kept of the map where your character has explored.

See the difference between the map that you have earned by exploring and having the full map revealed in-game the instant you start playing?

Or how about if you are playing a game where you speak with NPCs and the conversations are the same between games.

In the beginning, in order to have a copy of the conversations, you have to engage in copious note taking.

Finally somebody decides that is inconvenient and includes a log of the in game conversations so that a record is kept of conversations that your character has had.

See the difference between the log of conversations that you have earned by exploring and talking to NPCs and having every conversation in the log before you've ever played the game?


There's a difference between a convenient method of recalling information you have already earned by playing the game and getting free information.

[DaviddesJ]

My latest thought is to provide a way for players to generate complete monster information files and install them in the save directory, before they start. Then you could achieve full information by installing the file, rather than changing an in-game option, and get rid of one option setting entirely, and bypass the whole "cheat" question. It would just use the existing mechanism for carrying over data from a previous game.

[DaviddesJ]

Also, to make it clear, I had that information because I took the time to probe every monster in the first game after I overwrote my character file. So I "earned" the knowledge instead of being given it for free.

This is exactly my point. Making people "earn" ease-of-play conveniences through inconvenient hassles is, to my mind, a dated and offputting idea. You could require people to move one space at a time until they "earn" the right to use the run command, by taking 100,000 steps, or something. But it's just annoying. If there are things that make the game more fun to play, then just let everyone have the same fun, that's my approach.

[Oramin]

So, when you play, you want to have all of the information in your monster memory from the start, and you don't want to be marked as a cheater for it? But, when I play, you think it's really important to mark my games as cheating, because, say, the last time I played the game it was on a different computer?

The fact that you can start from the beginning with everything revealed in your monster memory just illustrates my point that it's clearly not "cheating" in the same way that having infinite lives is. If it were, you shouldn't do it either.

If I play on a different computer then I have absolutely no problem having an empty monster memory. As I indicated, the monster memory is a convenient substitute for your memory; I mostly remember what the monsters do.

And, besides, does your new computer *not* have access to the spoilers?

Edit:

Also, to make it clear, I had that information because I took the time to probe every monster in the first game after I overwrote my character file. So I "earned" the knowledge instead of being given it for free.

[DaviddesJ]

3. They can make the staves themselves, or have a supplier who can make them (but where does the supplier come from? Some mythical location that isn't built upon a gigantic dungeon of monsters?).

I always assumed that the shopkeepers just buy and sell. Sometimes people come through town (when you aren't there) and buy out of their inventory and also sell them stuff. That's where everything comes from.

[Derakon]

The shopkeeper clearly has some way to get access to charged staves of certain types, since they sell them normally. There's a few ways to explain that:

1. They buy up empty staves, cast Recharging, and build the resulting occasional item destruction into their operating costs.
2. They have access to a fail-safe Recharging spell, at least for lower-leveled staves.
3. They can make the staves themselves, or have a supplier who can make them (but where does the supplier come from? Some mythical location that isn't built upon a gigantic dungeon of monsters?).

Option 1 looks like option 2 except that sometimes when you sell a staff to the store, they don't put it up for sale. That seems suboptimal. Option 3 results in shopkeepers selling staves with 0 charges, since they can't recharge them on their own. Also suboptimal.

[DaviddesJ]

Besides, as an experienced player, you should already all the monsters in your monster memory. When I screwed up and accidentally overwrote my character file, I made a point of probing all the monsters in the following game so that my monster memory would be complete again.

So, when you play, you want to have all of the information in your monster memory from the start, and you don't want to be marked as a cheater for it? But, when I play, you think it's really important to mark my games as cheating, because, say, the last time I played the game it was on a different computer?

The fact that you can start from the beginning with everything revealed in your monster memory just illustrates my point that it's clearly not "cheating" in the same way that having infinite lives is. If it were, you shouldn't do it either.