V 3.5 now in feature freeze

[Oramin]

I understand that point of view but we weren't addressing Jeopardy.

What about those two scenarios I laid out?

[DaviddesJ]

There you go, much better. However, you didn't address whether you consider the two scenario I laid out should be considered cheating.

I'll still address your argument in the previous post, but I'd appreciate knowing exactly where you are drawing the line on convenience and why.

If you've got a "game" that depends on secret information, then it's cheating to have the information in advance. For example, if you were appearing on Jeopardy, it would be cheating to surreptitiously obtain a list of all of the questions and answers, in advance.

Angband isn't like that. Everything in the game is public and always has been. There aren't any secrets. Some people may choose to reveal and study more information, and some less, but it's all available to anyone who wants it. A lot different from Jeopardy.

[Oramin]

There you go, much better. However, you didn't address whether you consider the two scenario I laid out should be considered cheating.

I'll still address your argument in the previous post, but I'd appreciate knowing exactly where you are drawing the line on convenience and why.

[DaviddesJ]

I've already explained to you why providing free information within the game itself is cheating. Yet you haven't directly addressed the argument. Here it is again for your convenience:

From the very beginning, one of the core principles of Angband was that everything in the game is open and public. It's easy to look up for yourself what monsters can do, how spells work, what various pieces of equipment do, how the time model works, etc., etc. You don't even have to interpret the source code, there are "spoiler" files that present all of this information as conveniently as possible. It's one of the things that attracts people to the game. You say yourself that you look things up when you feel like it.

The person who looks something up in an external file is getting exactly the same information as someone who looks it up inside the game. Some people prefer one and some people prefer the other. Some people like the flavor aspect of having their in-game knowledge about monsters gradually increase over time, and only consulting external sources when they feel like it. Other people like simply having all of the information presented to them all the time. One way isn't better or worse than the other, they just reflect different preferences.

(When Angband was originally created, it didn't even have multiple windows. So the in-game monster knowledge didn't matter much, since it didn't automatically pop up for every monster you fight, you would have to do keystrokes just to look at it. If you're going to call it up, you might as well switch to a spoiler file, it's about the same. The convenience of having it in the monster knowledge is much greater now that the information can be displayed automatically.)

Since neither way of playing (complete monster knowledge in game, or viewing external spoiler files) gives an advantage or disadvantage relative to the other, neither should be considered "cheating". The reason that in-game monster knowledge gradually accumulates was never intended as some sort of handicap, since all of that information is freely available anyway. It's just a way for some people to enjoy accumulating that information, and to not be flooded with lots of information if they don't want. That's why it makes sense to let people turn it on or off, as they prefer.

1. Directly address the argument and persuade the devs and the community.

OK.

[Oramin]

Coming back to Angband, I'm not trying to persuade anyone to play any particular way. I think almost everyone who has ever played Angband has consulted some spoilers. But people should all decide for themselves how much information they want to read and how much they want to discover. That's the way it has always been and always should be. The option to discover only monster information as you go is a great option for those who prefer that. But the reality is that many/most Angband players have always been comfortable with consulting and using spoilers, the number of people who think "looking at a spoiler" is like "editing your save file to make yourself superhuman" is vanishingly small.

Sure people shoud be free to consult the external spoilers. I do it from time to time myself and I don't consider that to be cheating.

I've already explained to you why providing free information within the game itself is cheating. Yet you haven't directly addressed the argument. Here it is again for your convenience:

Suppose you are playing a game with a persistent map.

In the beginning, in order to have a copy of the map, you have to engage in copious note taking.

Finally somebody decides that is inconvenient and includes an automapping feature so that a record is kept of the map where your character has explored.

See the difference between the map that you have earned by exploring and having the full map revealed in-game the instant you start playing?

Or how about if you are playing a game where you speak with NPCs and the conversations are the same between games.

In the beginning, in order to have a copy of the conversations, you have to engage in copious note taking.

Finally somebody decides that is inconvenient and includes a log of the in game conversations so that a record is kept of conversations that your character has had.

See the difference between the log of conversations that you have earned by exploring and talking to NPCs and having every conversation in the log before you've ever played the game?


There's a difference between a convenient method of recalling information you have already earned by playing the game and getting free information.

Now, David, would you consider those situations to be cheating?


It was a decision made a long time ago for Angband that getting free information within the context of the game would be considered cheating. Just like getting infinite lives or getting free items (if I recall the wizard mode settings correctly; I haven't looked in years).

You're trying to persuade us to accept that getting free information within the context of the game isn't cheating and, therefore, Vanilla should be changed to reflect your personal preferences. The way I see it, you have three reasonable options:

1. Directly address the argument and persuade the devs and the community.

2. Play however you choose and accept the cheating tag.

3. If the cheating tag bothers you so much, either spend a couple of seconds looking stuff up outside of the game, rely on your personal memory from your vast 20+ years of experience, or compile your own personal version of Vanilla with the cheating tag removed.

[DaviddesJ]

What's the point of having "cheat lore" option when you can get the info by simply opening a text file?

Convenience.

What's the point of penalizing "cheat lore" when you can get the info by simply opening a text file? Inconvenience?

[DaviddesJ]

Have you ever played Nethack?

Briefly. Long before most of the things you mentioned were added (no branches, for example). I wasn't impressed then, and the game didn't get better over time.

It's a good illustration of how different people just like different things. Obviously, some people love it, or they wouldn't have made it that way.

[PowerWyrm]

Yup! Here: https://github.com/angband/angband/b...er/changes.txt

I've looked at the complete list of changes and found these ones that have been mentioned in the commits but not in that list:

- Nerf GCV
- (Hopefully) fix the segfault bug when placing feeling tiles in the town
- Move all uses of in_bounds(_fully) over to using cave_in_bounds(_fully) instead
- Add a note when you hit 'i' with no inventory, instead of doing nothing
- Refactor teleport_player_level() to ensure it never misbehaves
- Turn on hp_changes_color by default
- Fix occasional infinite loop in store restocking algorithm
- Fix up the weird mimic crash by not deleting the monster along with the object it is mimicking -- instead just make the mimic visible
- Fix up store bugs
- Fix quark freeing bug
- Fix monster/mon-init.c memory free bug

[PowerWyrm]

What's the point of having "cheat lore" option when you can get the info by simply opening a text file?

[eMeM]

I admit, I'm a cheater too. When I don't have info I always read things in files, internet or source code (max damage cap). I would vote for moving it from cheat to birth options. I think most of Angband players are long time players and should have all info available.

[Pete Mack]

Can't you get a similar effect by setting a very high failure rate?

Not really. But giving them an insanely high mana cost (like 100+) would do it. You can't use it as an escape, and you can't use it in a fight.

[Antoine]

How about making some high-level spells not immediate, but more powerful. Spells that require a ritual of some kind (in game terms several player turns). For example Priest Alter Reality could be one of those spells. For mage mass banishment, and maybe also Recharge III?

Can't you get a similar effect by setting a very high failure rate?

A.

[Timo Pietilä]

Have you ever played Nethack? Many things in Nethack are almost impossible to figure out without Spoilers

I have ascended few times in Nethack and I think almost all things you can figure out without spoilers, but it will take time to find all the weird things that you can do for example while confused. Angband is much more straightforward game.

You can't really compare the two, Angband is like Quake to Nethack Leisure Suit Larry.

[Patashu]

Nethack, by its design, requires spoilers. What are you going to do, inscribe random eight-letter words on the floor until you happen to write "Elbereth"? Has anyone, in the history of the game, ever done that?

Have you ever played Nethack? Many things in Nethack are almost impossible to figure out without Spoilers - This is not one of them.

1) There's a burned into the ground Elbereth at the end of the Sokoban branch
2) One of the oracle major consultancies outright tells you what Elbereth does
3) Five 'true' rumours mention Elbereth (accessible through fortune cookies of the right beatitude, minor consultations with the Oracle and applying/wielding certain quest artifacts)

What is spoilery, though, is using Elbereth effectively - there are a lot of variables to its use (such as whether you engrave with a weapon, your fingers, a wand, a soft gem, a hard gem, how many turns it takes, how likely it is to be scuffed, etc) and as a result you only see spoiled players use it powerfully.

[DaviddesJ]

Maybe a better comparison would be this: Should Nethack be shipped with a built-in list of spoilers, stats and statistics about absolutely everything, prompts before doing something stupid, automatic prompts to do unquestionably good yet obscure and spoilery things when the context is right, etc? It would still be a good, fun game but it would be a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT game going from spoiler-free to automatically spoiled.

I think Nethack is a terrible game so almost any change would improve it. Certainly, yes, I wouldn't play it without reading the source to know how everything works. But you won't get me to play it even then. Angband is, intentionally, a very different kind of game.

Nethack, by its design, requires spoilers. What are you going to do, inscribe random eight-letter words on the floor until you happen to write "Elbereth"? Has anyone, in the history of the game, ever done that?

Coming back to Angband, I'm not trying to persuade anyone to play any particular way. I think almost everyone who has ever played Angband has consulted some spoilers. But people should all decide for themselves how much information they want to read and how much they want to discover. That's the way it has always been and always should be. The option to discover only monster information as you go is a great option for those who prefer that. But the reality is that many/most Angband players have always been comfortable with consulting and using spoilers, the number of people who think "looking at a spoiler" is like "editing your save file to make yourself superhuman" is vanishingly small.