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Dude, you found Doomcaller? I don't think I've ever seen that weapon in all my years of playing. That's pretty dang lucky, even if you don't decide to use it.
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Er...is that good?
I think I figured it didn't do much more damage than Orome, which I was using, once you added in Orome's brand and +4spd. So the -50AC and aggravation just wasn't worth it.
I actually used Orome from when I found it (dlvl40) right up until the final battle when I swapped it out for Eowyn for slay evil (and then Grond, naturally).
[I should add that this was a save-scummed game as she was my first High Elf and my first Ranger, so not a win. Died a bit, learnt a lot. Now time to do it properly!]Comment
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Actually the aggravation is worth it.
I was using Gothmog (whip) in my current game. I would dig tunnels and then equip Gothmog to wake up the monsters and bring them into the tunnel. Made killing Ancalagon a breeze (and the Fire Immunity plus *Slay Dragon* didn't hurt).Comment
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Oromë is a nice weapon, no doubt, but it almost certainly doesn't do as much damage as Doomcaller does. 4d6 vs. 6d5 is a minor difference, but Oromë crucially doesn't have Slay Evil and its firebrand is going to be ineffective against many late-game enemies; meanwhile, Doomcaller has a cold brand (roughly equivalent utility, slightly worse against undead), Slay Evil, and Slay Demon / Kill Dragon. So against many lategame enemies, and especially against Sauron and Morgoth, it's vastly more powerful. Never mind that it has +28 to-dam vs. Oromë's +15.
In any event, the 'I'nspect screen should have told you which one deals more damage.
Aggravation is a non-issue for the final fights, though it can be annoying right up until then. You can of course use it as a swap weapon though. The -50 AC isn't great, but overall you'll take less damage with Doomcaller simply because your enemies will die that much faster. Doomcaller's ESP/SI/FA/basic resistances can also free up other equipment slots that were tied down covering essentials.
Oromës +4 speed is probably not going to make up the damage gap. Of course if you needed it to avoid being double-moved, then that's a different story, but that probably wasn't the case. Sure, going from +0 to +4 means a 40% increase in your damage output and a 40% reduction in damage received, but going from +20 to +24 is much less significant.
Really the only reason I'd use Oromë in the endgame is if I wasn't planning to melee Sauron/Morgoth and I had no need of Doomcaller's other side benefits. In that case, we're just talking about a stat stick that gives redundant abilities vs. one that gives +4 INT/Speed, and that's not really a hard choice. But if I was still stuck with a Helm of Telepathy, say, but had a juicy helm in my home waiting to be used, then Doomcaller would go right in.Comment
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All good points and well made.
I certainly would have (I)nspected it, but I may have missed the cold brand which would have made a difference (I had taken wine).
As for Morgoth, I was kind of counting on finding Pain at some point. It didn't really occur to me that I wouldn't (which is a bit of a schoolboy error).
As for stats, I was wearing my first ever set of PDSM (albeit on a cheating character), so slots weren't really a problem. (I also had Dorlomin and was a high elf).
But when it comes down to it, you're quite right - I should have at least carried it back. I'm really trying not to get carried away with filling my home with artifacts at the expense of carrying back useful consumables (which is something I still keep on doing). I try to remind myself that in the dungeon one extra scroll of banishment (let alone a potion of *healing*) in the backpack is worth a million extra artifacts in the home. That's probably why I dropped it in the end.
Still, like I say, you're right of course. Maybe Arya's (non-cheating) daughter will find it as well!
Or, more likely, not.Comment
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The only time my melee-damage in all my years of playing angband got nearly 1000 points/ turn against evil was with Doomcaller (warrior gets 6 blows with BoC, but not with MoD or SoS, so even Deathwreaker lost to that).
Only time I had a rivaling weapon to that was with lucky HA SoS with extra dice (9d4) and +24 to_dam with Priest, but priests are nowhere as good with melee, so couldn't quite match that damage.
It's good weapon. Aggravation makes it difficult to use as main weapon, but very good swap for quick dispatching nasty dragons/demons. It also has ESP so it might be very useful if you have multiple aggravating items and want to use it as main weapon.Comment
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Just to nitpick, 5.8 max for Warrior with BoC.
Incidentally, couldn't a (+15,+15) Sting with max stats and top level gear do better than Doomcaller?
(Just a guess, haven't run the numbers)Comment
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Doubtful; Sting only has 1d7 dice, so its slays aren't anywhere near as powerful. Going from 1d7 to 2d7 is an increase in average damage of 4; going from 6d5 to 12d5 is an increase of 18. So when slays apply, Doomcaller gets an extra 27 damage/blow over Sting (counting the disparity in pluses), and that's before you consider Doomcaller's significantly better crits (due to it being heavier).
Sting's +2 blows make it unusually competitive for a small weapon, but not enough to make it endgame-quality in my experience.Comment
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It's interesting that Derakon and Timo both make some points that fit in nicely with Doomcaller and my first win. When unique scumming at the end, I was using Doomcaller along with a bunch of Runes of Protection to bash everything in sight. I already had ESP with Narya along with aggravation from Eol (which gave "double" fire immunity, but did not find any other mage friendly gloves after I found Narya).
However, when it came time to fight Morgoth, I left Doomcaller at home in favor of Anguirel as my primary (with Turmil, Taratol, and Anduril as swaps). Against Morgoth I was using Mana Storm, Mass Banishment, Phase Door, Restore Mana, and Healing, so speed became more important than power.
(Sorry to beat you to Doomcaller, Derakon, but I've still never found Ringil.)Comment
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In general, I have no doubt that Doomcaller would be better but what I was wondering is if there's a transition point if you have a bunch of plus damage gear. For example:
The One Ring
Vilya (or a high end RoDam RoSlaying)
Fingolfin
Shield of Haradrim
Max Stats (so STR bonus is applied to 8 vs. 5.8 blows)Comment
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I'm sure if you had enough pluses to damage eventually the extra blows would win out over the stronger blows, but I don't think I've ever seen it happen in the endgame. Early- and mid-game is a different story of course. And if you lack the stats to get full blows with the bigger weapon then the lighter one with +blows might also be preferable. But if both are operating at "maximum power" then I think the big weapon will almost always be preferable, especially if it has applicable slays.Comment
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Just about anything that matters is at least evil, so Doomcaller dice alone is 12*3 (2*6d5) which gives you 36 points. Add to that 28 from weapon and you have 64 from weapon alone. Sting with 2*1d7 (8) + 15 has only 23 base damage before other bonuses, so you would need to beat 41 point / blow advantage using two extra blows. After five blows that advantage is 205 points of damage, so you would need to get 102.5 points of damage with those two blows (not counting criticals, which would actually be significant with Doomcaller). That would require 79.5 points from rest of the gear.
I don't think that is realistically doable. 20 from STR, 10 from Fingolfin, 5 from Weaponmastery leaves +23 and +22 RoDam, and I don't think that high RoDam exists anymore.
It's actually easier to get that with priest or mage, because for them two extra blows is 50% more blows when for ranger/paladin/rogue it is just 40% and for warrior 33%
If you get big-dice extra blows +2 weapon then that could beat Doomcaller. Not Sting, it's just too tiny weapon, but something else.Comment
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Yeah, rings of Damage top out at +15 now. I think even in the old days they never went above +22.
If you had randarts, then conceivably you could get access to damage bonuses from every single equipment slot...but of course, you also wouldn't be able to use Sting nor Doomcaller.Comment
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Gothmog at L58!
Glador was doing well, finally descending with some speed and feeling a bit powerful. This, after a very slow statgain -- DEX swapped with CHA early on. He enters L58 right between a purple S and U. The S is Shelob, no cause for alarm. Maybe kill her later. The U then? Balrogs are bad but I can probably kill it, what kind of ... whoa ... Gothmog? Hmm, isn't he dangerous? Oh crap, native to L95, only the big M and Sauron are native at lower depths.
How uncommon is this?
Could there be any correlation with the level of the artifact(s) in the Vault behind Gothmog? I've only just started to clear it.
[edit] The vault contained nothing very useful, only a quite undewhelming Robe that had high resists but is already useless in this game [end]Last edited by Thraalbee; June 24, 2013, 13:11.Comment
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