New nightly

[scud]

Thanks Max.

Not sure why I picked on shards; perhaps it should be something damper. I envisage StoM as a deluxe Kärcher pressure washer.

I agree with what seems to be the popular opinion, namely that restored Mice and Dogs are overpowered. However an unrestored Mouse is absolute junk and should be taken outside and shot. A good Dog seems a valid option in the very early game, but again becomes worthless at the first sign of a half decent 'magical' weapon.

[Max Stats]

Also, I haven't yet seen a Restore Item. Did they exist on 23 April? Will they exist in future nightlies? The TRAC entry isn't entirely clear to me.

Issue tracker sez they were removed as of 4/23.

Lastly, something that's been bugging me for a while: I've targeted something; I've thrown a few arrows or a bit of magic its way, then had mild second thoughts and wanted to Stone to Mud my way into a wall. I can't do it without unchecking the 'use last target by default' option, but I'm *sure* that until a few months ago you were asked for a direction when invoking StoM.

a) can StoM be made to override the targeting fix?

You can abort your target by pressing '* <Escape>" to make it easier than going into the options menu and navigating it. (As a side note, there has been some effort made to pare down the options menu. I wonder if anyone normally plays with "Use old target by default" off. Could this option be another "target" for elimination, so that it would be forced on at all times?)

b) shouldn't StoM actually cause some damage to the first non-shard resistant beastie it meets, rather than knock holes in walls behind them? I'm not asking for StoM to become a viable offensive weapon, but it seems like an odd behaviour.

Some monsters are vulnerable to StoM, but they have to be explicitly made vulnerable to it in order to take damage. It does seem a bit odd that the beam penetrates the monster without effect if it isn't vulnerable.

[scud]

Mac nightly of 23 April:

As soon as I get a bit of cash I start to stock up on magic books. With the aid of a very fortuitous PoExp I'm now at level 28, but in my 4-5 'shopping trips' I'm yet to encounter anything beyond Conjurings and Tricks. Half the time the Mage Shop only has had only a single copy of Magic for Beginners. I've never seen the like before... is this a deliberate move to make me 'earn' my books? Can't find mention of it on TRAC.

Also, I haven't yet seen a Restore Item. Did they exist on 23 April? Will they exist in future nightlies? The TRAC entry isn't entirely clear to me.

Lastly, something that's been bugging me for a while: I've targeted something; I've thrown a few arrows or a bit of magic its way, then had mild second thoughts and wanted to Stone to Mud my way into a wall. I can't do it without unchecking the 'use last target by default' option, but I'm *sure* that until a few months ago you were asked for a direction when invoking StoM.

a) can StoM be made to override the targeting fix?

b) shouldn't StoM actually cause some damage to the first non-shard resistant beastie it meets, rather than knock holes in walls behind them? I'm not asking for StoM to become a viable offensive weapon, but it seems like an odd behaviour.

[SSK]

Level feelings are determined by the "rating" value of the cave object...
calculate_feeling() in generate.c determines the actual feeling received. If the rating is:

> 50 + dlvl  => superb feeling
> 40 + .8 * dlvl => excellent feeling
> 30 + .6 * dlvl => very good feeling
> 20 + .4 * dlvl => good feeling
> 15 + .33 * dlvl => little lucky
> 10 + .2 * dlvl => unsure
> 5 + .1 * dlvl => reasonably safe
> 0 => quiet, peaceful place
= 0 => looks uninteresting

If nothing else of interest was on the level, you'd have a rating of 25, which at dlvl 30 puts you into the "unsure" category (since the rating equals 25, is not greater than it).

Hi again Derakon, thanks for elucidating the code.

And thanks for verifying that something was incorrect and unintended with my feeling: As you just laid out my feeling should have been "unsure" bordering on "little lucky" (assuming nothing of any interest whatsoever on the level), yet I got "Quiet peaceful place". This is quite clearly incorrect.

The two possibilities are:
A) A bug in the feeling code (suspected)
B) A bug in how it handles recalling the origin of the item. I had just killed a few monsters and I rarely recall which items I picked off the floor vs dropped by monsters--but the program now tells you (nice feature IMHO) an item's origin when you do "I" on it. I sort of thought the slippers had been lying on the floor, and the program confirmed I found it lying on the floor vs dropped.

As an aside (gameplay opinion vs bug report) I think footwear of speed deserves more intelligent handling (I would argue for variable power rating depending on the speed boost, like say (15 + 2*Pval) which would have given my +9 slippers a rating of 33, and I wish pits/nests weren't so highly rated by this system--I find them more annoying/tedious than helpful, and not nearly as interesting as vaults. When I explore a level with a high feeling rating I am always really disappointed to find a pit/nest.

[Derakon]

Level feelings are determined by the "rating" value of the cave object, which is increased by the following:

* 5 + .1 * native level for pits and nests
* A per-vault modifier defined in vault.txt
* For OOD monsters, 2x the level of OODness if unique, 1x otherwise
* A per-ego modifier defined in ego.txt (for footwear of Speed, this is 25)
* 30 + (power level) / 25 for artifacts
* (power level) / 15 for all items (presumably this is zero for most)
* For OOD nonmagical items, 1x the level of OODness

calculate_feeling() in generate.c determines the actual feeling received. If the rating is:

> 50 + dlvl  => superb feeling
> 40 + .8 * dlvl => excellent feeling
> 30 + .6 * dlvl => very good feeling
> 20 + .4 * dlvl => good feeling
> 15 + .33 * dlvl => little lucky
> 10 + .2 * dlvl => unsure
> 5 + .1 * dlvl => reasonably safe
> 0 => quiet, peaceful place
= 0 => looks uninteresting

If nothing else of interest was on the level, you'd have a rating of 25, which at dlvl 30 puts you into the "unsure" category (since the rating equals 25, is not greater than it).

[SSK]

Damage figures are always calculated from what you currently know about the object. If you think they're wrong given your current knowledge, please report that as a bug, but it sounds like what you saw was 100% intentional behaviour.

Hi Takkaria.

I understand at this point that I was initially mistaken that this had something to do with the prior dice reversion issue, and that the current behavior is intentional. I take issue with a minor aspect of this intentional behavior as I have laid out above, but that is for another thread.

Next issue: Level feelings.

I've always thought these were behaving funny. For instance, just yesterday at DLevel 30 or so I descended to a cavern level and got the feeling "This seems like a quiet and peaceful place". I picked off the floor, not dropped by any monster, Ethereal slippers of speed <+9>. That item is not sufficiently powerful to generate even "You feel a little lucky"???

[EpicMan]

Damage figures are always calculated from what you currently know about the object. If you think they're wrong given your current knowledge, please report that as a bug, but it sounds like what you saw was 100% intentional behaviour.

Although once you know the artifact name unless it's the first time you've seen it you will already know what the damage dice are, unless you are playing with randarts.

[gudjkrist]

Originally Posted by SSK
p.s. Derakon: I am playing birth_no_selling per your suggestion and it is MUCH BETTER. I am shocked. Required some getting used to with beginning characters, but you are so right, makes play much better by freeing up inventory for useful marginal items instead of using it to tote cash-value items.

Thank PowerDiver for pushing the concept and (I think) Magnate for actually getting it done.

Regarding your axe, by any chance did you not have it ID'd when you saw the 2d6? Artifact weapons with unusual dice will show the usual dice for the weapon type until they are ID'd.

Just wanted to add my two cents. I love playing with "birth_no_selling" and it feels exactly like it was supposed to be this way all along. It's almost like I feel all the older games playing with selling on was an aberration. Great change.

[takkaria]

It gave me damage figures. I believe they were true, because the identified attributes didn't affect damage--it's got no slays and the weight is the same as the base weapon. Curious to see if the damage is incorrect on not-yet-identified artifacts that have slays and/or are different weight than the base.

Damage figures are always calculated from what you currently know about the object. If you think they're wrong given your current knowledge, please report that as a bug, but it sounds like what you saw was 100% intentional behaviour.

[SSK]

What did it list before you identified it?

It gave me damage figures. I believe they were true, because the identified attributes didn't affect damage--it's got no slays and the weight is the same as the base weapon. Curious to see if the damage is incorrect on not-yet-identified artifacts that have slays and/or are different weight than the base.

I still think "lying" about the dice is handled a bit silly. I think it ought to say base weapon dice ("lying") when looking at it on the floor, but if you're going to reveal it is an artifact that has a name upon picking it up, how about not showing ANY dice (A beaked Axe of Hurin {special} period). At least that is not confusing. But it's really a very minor point affecting nothing, except it confused me into thinking something might be broken--since there was a dice issue before with artifact reversion (which I observed myself).

[takkaria]

I would think though that once it says in your inventory "Beaked Axe of Hurin", you already know it is special, so it might as well display 3d6. I *AM* positive this was not the case initially. It definitely said Beaked Axe of Hurin 2d6 when first in my inventory.

That is intentional. You only figure out attack damage by attacking (or using ID).

I just found another artifact with normal dice (can't test the above)--Gondricam. After it was dropped by Smeagol I looked at it lying on the floor and it correctly said simply "A cutlass 1d8". But immediately on my picking it up it said "A cutlass 'Gondricam' (1d8)" and listed certain attributes when I did "I" but some info was correctly withheld until I identified it.

What did it list before you identified it?

[SSK]

SSK: the current intended behavior is that you see an axe 2d6. You pick it up and are informed that it is Hurin's axe, but you still only see that it is 2d6. Once you hit something with it or cast ID on it, you should see the dice get updated to 3d6. 'I'nspection should always be consistent with the information shown when looking at your inventory/equipment.

The goal is to make it so artifacts aren't obvious at a distance. Since dice are always displayed for weapons (and base AC for armor), this requires the UI to lie to you up until you actually know the item's real attributes.

That goal makes total sense to me. Unfortunately I can't remember for SURE whether it said 3d6 after I ID-ed it. Next time I find an artifact weapon with more dice than the standard for the type, I'll have to notice when it says what more carefully. I would think though that once it says in your inventory "Beaked Axe of Hurin", you already know it is special, so it might as well display 3d6. I *AM* positive this was not the case initially. It definitely said Beaked Axe of Hurin 2d6 when first in my inventory.

I just found another artifact with normal dice (can't test the above)--Gondricam. After it was dropped by Smeagol I looked at it lying on the floor and it correctly said simply "A cutlass 1d8". But immediately on my picking it up it said "A cutlass 'Gondricam' (1d8)" and listed certain attributes when I did "I" but some info was correctly withheld until I identified it.

[Derakon]

Correct dice are shown once you hit something with the object even without casting ID.

I'm counting this as ID'd since you ID'd it by use, though I grant I could have phrased that better.

SSK: the current intended behavior is that you see an axe 2d6. You pick it up and are informed that it is Hurin's axe, but you still only see that it is 2d6. Once you hit something with it or cast ID on it, you should see the dice get updated to 3d6. 'I'nspection should always be consistent with the information shown when looking at your inventory/equipment.

The goal is to make it so artifacts aren't obvious at a distance. Since dice are always displayed for weapons (and base AC for armor), this requires the UI to lie to you up until you actually know the item's real attributes.

[SSK]

...Regarding your axe, by any chance did you not have it ID'd when you saw the 2d6? Artifact weapons with unusual dice will show the usual dice for the weapon type until they are ID'd.

Hmm. In older versions of Ang it used to say just Beaked Axe 3d6. By which I would know it is some sort of ego item with an extra die and probably Hurin. Then pseudo ID would say {special} by which I would know it was Hurin.

In 3.2 and 3.3 I am noticing all artifacts are sort of ID-ed automatically--I saw it initially in my inventory as Beaked Axe of Hurin (2d6) {special} without doing any spells or pseudo ID--I think that was the terminology or was it {artifact}. Then I ID'ed it and the {special} or {artifact} went away. I am pretty sure it still said 2d6 after the ID, until after I did "I" to check the damage.

Hmm, maybe it is *intended* behaviour for the true dice not to be given until you do "I"...

I will weigh in again if it suddenly turns back into 2d6, which would definitely be a bug...

[PowerDiver]

Regarding your axe, by any chance did you not have it ID'd when you saw the 2d6? Artifact weapons with unusual dice will show the usual dice for the weapon type until they are ID'd.

Correct dice are shown once you hit something with the object even without casting ID.