New nightly

[d_m]

There ought to be general rules about what a level is. E.g. a minimum number of staircases. If you believe, as I do, that the player should be allowed to plan on escapes, a minimum diameter [empty space to empty space] of twice the range of one of teleport self or teleport other or portal. I am not sure even the old levels are large enough! The problem with teleport self swapping you back and forth between two small areas would be lessened with larger levels.

If this is true then I agree that these new level types I have created are a disaster. I'm not convinced that these are invariants to be maintained, but I'm open to being convinced.

I guess your argument comes down to a belief that the player should be able to reliably teleport between more than a few sufficiently distant locations? Are there other considerations? When you say minimum number of down staircases, do you mean a minimum >1 or >0?

I am very interested in the idea of dungeon invariants and am interested in ideas about what they should be (if anything). EDIT: That said, having 100 dungeon levels with very similar feel, shape and size seems uninteresting.

[Spacebux]

There ought to be general rules about what a level is. E.g. a minimum number of staircases. If you believe, as I do, that the player should be allowed to plan on escapes, a minimum diameter [empty space to empty space] of twice the range of one of teleport self or teleport other or portal. I am not sure even the old levels are large enough!

Who knows, maybe they improve the game, but so far they just feel wrong to me. It is going to take some time to unlearn assumptions that have been reinforced for years.

Can you imagine being (un)lucky enough to have that maze at L99-100? Lots of fun possibilities there.

I would, though, like to also see a couple of frikk'n huge levels, not just reduced size, or maze levels.

(No - I don't need another Option for that... Takkaria's never going to get over my rants, otherwise...)

[PowerDiver]

I think Eddie is saying that the way they are now (entire level) is wrong and that they should be made into a (large) room-type.

There ought to be general rules about what a level is. E.g. a minimum number of staircases. If you believe, as I do, that the player should be allowed to plan on escapes, a minimum diameter [empty space to empty space] of twice the range of one of teleport self or teleport other or portal. I am not sure even the old levels are large enough! The problem with teleport self swapping you back and forth between two small areas would be lessened with larger levels.

I guess I'd think tiny levels are OK if those escapes teleported you or the monster to an entirely new level akin to alter reality or banishment.

There is a rule that you are not even *allowed* to descend stairs into a vault. IMO the maze turns that rule upside down.

Who knows, maybe they improve the game, but so far they just feel wrong to me. It is going to take some time to unlearn assumptions that have been reinforced for years.

[d_m]

Uhh... some levels ARE entire Vaults..

Play a little more and you will come across one or two.

I think Eddie is saying that the way they are now (entire level) is wrong and that they should be made into a (large) room-type.

[Spacebux]

Those should be vaults, not entire levels.

Uhh... some levels ARE entire Vaults..

Play a little more and you will come across one or two.

[gudjkrist]

Some are still too plain for me – it's probably just change resistance after years of 'fully populated' floors. That said, if a level contains only 5-6 rooms then you're onto the next one within a couple of minutes so it's no hardship. I've just found a couple of great new levels in the 23 April nightly, though: sort of 'rooms superimposed on caverns' style. Top work, room person!

Still not liking the Pac-Man levels. They disturb my suspension of disbelief...

I wanted to add my thoughts. I like the change in levels. It has proven fun to play the smaller ones; more than I thought.

It seems that I always get level feelings now, regardless of how long I have stayed at the current level before Recalling or climbing stairs. Is this a conscious decision because of the smaller levels?

[PowerDiver]

Still not liking the Pac-Man levels. They disturb my suspension of disbelief...

Those should be vaults, not entire levels.

[scud]

At first I thought it *too* spare, but now I like it after more play.

Some are still too plain for me – it's probably just change resistance after years of 'fully populated' floors. That said, if a level contains only 5-6 rooms then you're onto the next one within a couple of minutes so it's no hardship. I've just found a couple of great new levels in the 23 April nightly, though: sort of 'rooms superimposed on caverns' style. Top work, room person!

Still not liking the Pac-Man levels. They disturb my suspension of disbelief...

[SSK]

I definitely like the changes to dungeon generation. I haven't found any new level styles yet, but I like that they are generally more spare. It feels a little more dungeon-like, and less cluttered. Thumbs up.

Yeah I now agree. At first I thought it *too* spare, but now I like it after more play. There are a number of types of other levels. More variety than prior versions.

Possible bug: I used - successfully, I think - a staff of detect invisible, but it did not show me the invisible creature that I know was nearby, unless I just missed it. I'll try to recreate this to be sure the next time something touches me .

Known bug with duplicate tickets on Trac.

[Chud]

A couple of comments on the currently nightly, the first I've played that's newer than 3.2.0... overall, I like it!

I definitely like the changes to dungeon generation. I haven't found any new level styles yet, but I like that they are generally more spare. It feels a little more dungeon-like, and less cluttered. Thumbs up.

Possible bug: I used - successfully, I think - a staff of detect invisible, but it did not show me the invisible creature that I know was nearby, unless I just missed it. I'll try to recreate this to be sure the next time something touches me .

[myshkin]

c) a Ring of Soulkeeping
Dropped by a Cutpurse at 500 feet (level 10).

Sustains strength, intelligence, wisdom.

Shouldn't that strength be charisma instead? Not that I am complaining, strength is actually more useful, but I think this is an error.

I would have guessed the same, but I found this old forum thread to indicate otherwise.

[Max Stats]

Soulkeeping ring sustains

c) a Ring of Soulkeeping
Dropped by a Cutpurse at 500 feet (level 10).

Sustains strength, intelligence, wisdom.

Shouldn't that strength be charisma instead? Not that I am complaining, strength is actually more useful, but I think this is an error.

[Spacebux]

...Speaking of nightlies...

I am getting a lot of regular work done now, thanks.

I hope we're not going to have to wait for Harry & Pippa to elope ere we get another nightly.

-Sbux-

[PowerDiver]

p.s. Can you still uncurse Calris by getting the to-hit to 0? I've been carrying it around hoping to uncurse it so I can use it as a disenchanter swap, but my first to-hit scroll failed (which never used to happen when the thing was -20).

The old rule was that each successful increase past 0 had a chance to uncurse. The current rule is that any attempt, even unsuccessful, has a chance to uncurse. If you have spare ?+dam lying around, you could try them.

[myshkin]

Another pluralization issue:

I believe the plural of Mumak is "Mumakil", not "Mumaks". I decided to OoD a group of them just to find out if the program did it right :-)

This kind of attention to the detail of Tolkien's language I think makes the game totally better.

Thanks! Unfortunately, it will take a little while before we can handle these cases correctly; while the game permits flexible pluralization for objects in the edit file, it has a bunch of special cases for monster pluralization directly in the code.

Be on the lookout for a similar thread over the next few days. I will be soliciting more opinions soon.