Sil Builds/Challenges/Concepts/Stupid-Ascension-Tricks

[taptap]

I've just double checked this and darkness is not relevant to the line of sight check. They still have LOS on you if you are in darkness (and you have LOS on them even if you can't see them). This is because most monsters are able to see in the dark. Technically @s and Gs should need you to be lit too. I might add that in, but it is not there at the moment. I'm impressed you survived as well as you did, because this wasn't helping you!

Hahaha. I was hallucinating game mechanics again. @s and Gs aren't exactly high perception enemies so the benefit would be very limited. (Maybe you can give a negative modifier to stealth for too much light in future.)

The early listen helped a lot in avoiding things especially against the deadliest enemy of pacifists - crebains and bats As usual I didn't post the countless amount of chars sacrificed early in the game. There were a few. Personally I find Doriath easiest and Finarfin second easiest for pure stealth builds - no light forced me to take listen almost from start when I would have taken more stealth otherwise.

[taptap]

I would love to play Sil with a party of 3 chars - not heroes but commoners (say 4 flexible stat pts. at start instead of 13 pts.) and fixed 10k XP and no learning and see how far I can go. (The dungeon isn't really designed for having more than one unit, but still.)

[taptap]

I'd like to pose a question. If you absolutely had to win the game, upon risk of death, lets say, what are some things that you would do differently to ensure victory?

I would play a Doriath singer. I would swap out light sources in lighted rooms. I would search for traps in vaults before moving. I would not take risks, i.e. fights.

[taptap]

Concept "Fencer"

Idea: killing Morgoth subtly with negative or 0 strength with no need to buff up strength for rapid attack. I am sure you can kill Morgoth when you add concentration, slaying and maybe song of sharpness for overkill - I don't know how to survive until then. You could start with some ridiculous stat distribution such as 0/5/3/5.

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A 0.9 lb shortsword has difficulty 7.

A 0.9 lb shortsword with +2 evasion has difficulty 12.
(Possible at start with enchantment?)

A 0.9 lb shortsword of Gondolin has difficulty 17.
(Drains 2 strength when simulated via artifice, but that wouldn't matter much.)

A 0.9 lb shortsword with +2 evasion and rapid attack has difficulty 22.

A sharp 0.9 lb shortsword has difficulty 27.
(This should be sufficient.)

A sharp 0.9 lb shortsword with +2 evasion has difficulty 32.

Reducing weight to 0.8 lb increases difficulty by 2.

[half]

Concept "Fencer"

One could also try two-weaponing with your current best shortsword in your main hand and your old one in your off-hand (since the -3 Str is irrelevant). My guess is that Subtlety is better though. Does anyone have some kind of fight simulator for Sil?

1d6 daggers are another possibility, but I'm pretty sure < 1lb short swords are always going to be better.

Also note that you will really want cruel blow.

[taptap]

Cruel blow is very handy but everyone runs so fast when you have it My Maregil (light weapons char that killed Morgoth with subtle Delmereth) put wrath on her boots but still had enemies running.

I believe both two weaponing and rapid attack are generally overrated at least for the weapons people use them with - I often felt like I have to take them for the throne room but I forgot that the enemies get their armour on each of my attacks, while my attacks are significantly weaker. So basically you can only really use it to full effect when buffed up. I suspect for many builds momentum might be the better (and cheaper) way to profit from buffing up.

I would go subtlety with this build, the idea of a killing Morgoth in melee with a zero strength char is really tempting.

[taptap]

Concept: Trickster (no stealth, no Lorien pacifist)

Idea: Make Morgoth and friends believe you are dangerous when you are not.

Use Elbereth, Majesty and lots of light. May require Song of Mastery and sprinting for creatures too dumb to be impressed.

[debo]

Cruel blow is very handy but everyone runs so fast when you have it My Maregil (light weapons char that killed Morgoth with subtle Delmereth) put wrath on her boots but still had enemies running.

I believe both two weaponing and rapid attack are generally overrated at least for the weapons people use them with - I often felt like I have to take them for the throne room but I forgot that the enemies get their armour on each of my attacks, while my attacks are significantly weaker. So basically you can only really use it to full effect when buffed up. I suspect for many builds momentum might be the better (and cheaper) way to profit from buffing up.

I would go subtlety with this build, the idea of a killing Morgoth in melee with a zero strength char is really tempting.

The worst part of this would actually be managing your inventory, imo. I was playing some 0 Str characters lately and dealing with the weight limit was more than I was willing to deal with after a while

[taptap]

Concept: Trickster (no stealth, no Lorien pacifist)

Idea: Make Morgoth and friends believe you are dangerous when you are not.

Use Elbereth, Majesty and lots of light. May require Song of Mastery and sprinting for creatures too dumb to be impressed.

I tried this with a Beor farm boy, trying to survive Angband with his cunning and fast legs only (0/3/1/4, sprinting and elbereth at start). Made it once to 300 ft. but the amount of unintelligent monsters (all insects, bats and early wolves) in the early levels is a real problem for him. Maybe a limited amount of archery is necessary to at least handle insects / bats.

It is the first build that will look forward to wargs (because they are intelligent).

[half]

(all insects, bats and early wolves)

Insects are pretty nasty for Song of Lorien users too. They have high Will scores, which is primarily because their Will is used in the skill roll when they try to poison you or whatever, so it needs to be high. I don't mind the fact that they end up being hard to sing to sleep. It seems silly if you imagine them to have iron wills, but better if you imagine them to have very non-human minds and thus harder to affect with songs etc.

[taptap]

Concept "Fencer"

Idea: killing Morgoth subtly with negative or 0 strength with no need to buff up strength for rapid attack. I am sure you can kill Morgoth when you add concentration, slaying and maybe song of sharpness for overkill - I don't know how to survive until then. You could start with some ridiculous stat distribution such as 0/5/3/5.

I started with 0/5/3/5, forged a 4.5 lb glaive for pre-subtlety damage, a 0.8 lb shortsword and a 0.8 lb shortbow (requires 9 smithing) in the first forge. The glaive is a really good starting weapon for a weak character. Damage increased with subtlety and increased even further with rapid attack. It works. Not sure about other disarming enemies and webs, the orcs didn't manage to do so because they were dead so fast.

[taptap]

Challenge: Commoner

Use only 4 variable points instead of 13 at start. This maps Noldor to the strength of hero Edain and Edain to ... thus implementing the nightmare mode before it is implemented.

[HallucinationMushroom]

I challenge someone to win the challenge I tried several times, but couldn't quite crack the very end-game with. No abilities, just raw skill points. Most of my tries were with all the other in game challenges, but it's probably hard enough without those. If someone can win the no abilities challenge, then they should ramp it up with that next for sheer masochistic pleasure.

[taptap]

I challenge someone to win the challenge I tried several times, but couldn't quite crack the very end-game with. No abilities, just raw skill points. Most of my tries were with all the other in game challenges, but it's probably hard enough without those. If someone can win the no abilities challenge, then they should ramp it up with that next for sheer masochistic pleasure.

Fascinating challenge. I tried with a 3353 Fingolfin warrior. I lost my first attempt due to my stubbornness to Gilim who was simply too strong for me. In the second run again at 500 ft. - at least in the early game this is seriously strong. Took out Easterling uniques and got a 3d5 bastard sword of hador's house, shield of hador and gloves of brethil. I hope abilities through items are allowed.

Currently sitting on 3 different unidentified amulets and 2 unidentified special greaves and really want to get the likely free action included in the greaves, but don't dare to carry potentially 2 danger items around.

[Psi]

I challenge someone to win the challenge I tried several times, but couldn't quite crack the very end-game with. No abilities, just raw skill points. Most of my tries were with all the other in game challenges, but it's probably hard enough without those. If someone can win the no abilities challenge, then they should ramp it up with that next for sheer masochistic pleasure.

I'm having a go too: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=15049&ok

Interestingly the same 3353 as taptap - which is what I also did for the melee/evasion only build.