Sil Builds/Challenges/Concepts/Stupid-Ascension-Tricks

[bron]

Or, are you saying that the maximum skill score cannot breach 10, regardless of skill points invested?

No, I was talking about skill points invested, not the actual score. I can't imagine how to win if your actual *score* were not more than 10 in all categories. I think it should be possible to do if you use "skill points invested" as the limiter. For instance, you could get 10 points of melee, plus five points of Dex (six, if you take the Archery Dex ability), plus make and/or find some rings of Accuracy, plus affinity, plus a good sword, and you should be able to get an actual score over 20. Not great, but probably enough, possibly coupled with Master Hunter or Focused Attack. It seems like it might be an interesting challenge to try to use various abilities and tactics to try to overcome a lack of raw skill. But maybe Smithing just overpowers all other options. Maybe try it with 10 points, but without Artifice? I don't know, but there seems to be fertile ground for several challenge levels. Each lower limit cuts out various useful abilities, making it harder to overcome the lower limit. I think 12 is clearly possible; 10 is probably possible, but hard; 8 maybe might be possible, but very hard; I doubt that 7 is possible. And forbidding Artifice would probably make everything a lot harder. I'm not sure you could go below limit 10 without Artifice.

Like I said, I haven't actually done any of this, so I could be way off base. But it seems like it could be an interesting challenge.

[HallucinationMushroom]

This seems like it would be in the same vein as the jack of all trades challenge, since maximizing utility from small skill numbers would prompt you to spread your experience points around as much as possible, and likely buy lots of abilities, but without the nag of worrying about difference from lowest and highest skills... like max-minning. Sounds fun!

If you set max skill points invested at 10, and spread across all 8 skills, you'd hit max at, what, 44,000? If you then bought 4 abilities from each, you'd still only hit about 84,000 or so.

Or, are you saying that the maximum skill score cannot breach 10, regardless of skill points invested? That would be excruciating, but I'd love to see a scenario where it could work. That would be ingenious.

[bron]

So I was thinking about a new challenge: minimum skill level. Try to win with the lowest maximum points in any skill. No more than 10 points in any skill seems like a hard but not impossible challenge level, but it sorta seems like someone who really understood smithing might be able to do it with only 8 (by using Artifice to make up for some of the lack). And it doesn't really seem like 7 is possible.

I'm taking a break from Sil to play in the current competition, but I think I'll pursue this afterwards. Assuming nobody else has already set an impossibly high bar by then.

[Psi]

Better?

Yeah, that'll do

[bron]

rather than a fear based attack it is more domination of their will

Ok, how about this then:

"And now suddenly I have a vision of you striding fearlessly through the caverns of Angband, singing triumphantly, while all around you the denizens of evil stand slack jawed and immobile, helpless before your sheer awesomeness."

Better?

[Psi]

V's will increases once his crown falls and Mastery is (song-5). I thought the only d20 rolls were in combat? Presumably these are d10 to give the magic 40.

[Thraalbee]

I believe it is d20 plus Song vs d20 plus Will. Max monster Will is close to 20 (23 iirc) and V has 20. But that is only at 1 distance, song power is lower over distance. But don't use the bow at point blank! they will get the opportunity attack even if you sing Mastery.

[Psi]

Well played, sir. Well played. Did Morgoth even manage to fight back, or did he just lay there cringing in fear like everything else?

Thanks! The song is mastery, so rather than a fear based attack it is more domination of their will. Still, same result. Morgoth never made a move against me - from what Scatha has posted elsewhere I believe 40 song is enough for Morgoth to never act when adjacent to you.

The rather odd thing though, is that despite them not being able to move when under my mastery they can still dodge my blows all too easily! Carcharoth was damn hard to hit!

[bron]

Gravedigger

It was really amusing to me to read this, since I didn't understand it at first and it gradually unfolded before me as I looked at it more closely:

"Humm .. must have been a heckofa shovel, let's look .. well, that's good certainly, but only one brand and two extra damage sides; doesn't seem like enough .. he's got Power and Rapid Attack .. a couple of +Damage rings .. wow, a lot of this equipment has +Grace on it. Wonder why? I suppose it helps with Smithing but ... uh .. humm .. those "Last Messages" don't make sense .. I guess Carcharoth just missed all the time? .. no, that's not it, I'd see a message that he missed .. he's not acting at all? how .. well, I guess I see the guy is singing Majesty but that shouldn't stop Carcharoth; I mean his Song is only .. 43??!!? .. WITH VOICE OVER 1500?!?!? ... he was probably signing continuously, with all of Angband cowering before him."

And now suddenly I have a vision of poor, helpless, little Carcharoth whining like a sick puppy in the corner while you methodically beat his brains in with a shovel.

Well played, sir. Well played. Did Morgoth even manage to fight back, or did he just lay there cringing in fear like everything else?

[HallucinationMushroom]

Yesssssssss!

[Psi]

Yeah, like that! I've killed Morgy with a digger in this game, the mattock, but certainly not the shovel.

Considering the shovel in all serious though: If you had a really good smith, you could make a poison and fire branded shovel, at a ludicrous cost of around 58. So, 4d2. Let's say you have power (4d3), can achieve 9 strength through native strength and herb and potion (4d12), have momentum and 4 sources of extra damage, say from damage rings and maybe an artifact glove the kind that Psi makes that nets you +1 Str and +1 Damage (4d16), take rapid attack (4d13x2) and have song of slaying in the upper teens, kill everything at the throne room and get a really high melee bonus (+40 x2 4d12). Unfortunately, you cannot dual wield shovels, and sharpness doesn't apply to shovels, but this might to be enough to kill Morgoth.

This is actually the kind of stuff I was wanting to talk about here, weird-oddball stuff, so thanks! I still think about my ditchdigger character now and again. I should have been patient and hoarded more healing, but, it just didn't feel right... I was ready for the big fight. If I had gone against my gut, I probably would've died scumming for potions and that would've sucked.

Decided to give it a go... Gravedigger

[HallucinationMushroom]

That's probably true about the ironman thing. It's neat to me that 45,000xp could be enough to win since I often find myself looking forward to 90,000xp or so. After playing a few times like this I think challenge is too strong a word. Perhaps, mode? You're right old Debo, I don't think it's necessarily that hard. It's useful as a trim-the-fat tool, perhaps, or imagining scenarios that are probably impossible outside of taking a lump sum of experience up front. One of my first, and extremely doomed early character builds, was a dwarf who made an artifact cold branded spear at the first forge. Doesn't work (and is now too expensive in this version anyway). However, now I could try it again, and even though it might not be viable in a real game, getting over the xp and whole, you-can't-survive-this-start, is fun. And, it's just something I was messing with. You could make it 40,000 max, or 30,000 xp, or perhaps just boost initial starting xp by some set amount, just to see what happens.

This is actually what's happened to my path of exile character. He got a complete respec when they changed their massive skill tree... and now I have 71 points to place for my level 58 barb. It's interesting to think I can make something that would have been rather squishy for the first 40 levels for late game power, and not even have to suffer the squishy parts.

[debo]

This 45K xp thing sounds like it would only really be a challenge if you went ironman. One of the trickiest parts of Sil IMO is conserving good consumables when you first start getting them around 400' where your equipment and skills are kinda shit. With 45K xp you should be pretty strong until 700'-800', which kinda lets you milk the first 75% of the game really hard no?

Of course I haven't tried it, so MMMV

[HallucinationMushroom]

Cool. I made a couple more of these with some crazy distributions and had quite a bit of fun. I think I could conceievably reverse engineer some of my more realistic builds, but taking advantage of just racking up melee and evasion to ridiculous heights might actually offer a better chance at winning. Or, maybe even stealth or song or something, I dunno.

I made a melee/evasion heavy, with a little will, and took every down staircase as soon as I found it and still hanging tough at 900'. I haven't had a chance to play much lately, but I might take a go at only melee.

[bron]

I tried this 45,000 xp challenge (http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=14117).
I got a lot further than I expected to. It certainly seems winnable. I think the only real question is how fast you can afford to descend: the "equipment vs. turncount" dilemma.