Sil Builds/Challenges/Concepts/Stupid-Ascension-Tricks

[half]

Yes, I like these as 1 skill, 2 skill, 3 skill, 4 skill challenges.

It can't be too hard to get some 3 skill Stealth thing working. I'd choose Stealth plus Perception and Song (hoping for boots to grant Sprinting).

[Scatha]

The Melee/Evasion only challenge is a specialisation of:

The Two-Skill Challenge:
Only put points into two skills

I don't believe that this has been done, but I think it could be nicer to establish it as the standard, rather than specifying skills. Then if someone has an imaginative approach, they can go for it.

The corresponding Four-Skill Challenge has been completed several times, but is still a bit of a restriction. I think the Three-Skill Challenge has only been won with the two Melee/Evasion/Will characters that have been mentioned. It seems like it gives a good balance between restriction and possibilities, though, so perhaps people will explore other possibilities here.

[Scatha]

Ok, I can work with that. It doesn't particularly look possible, but it's worth a shot. One question: suppose I find a {special} item made out of mithril. Do you consider it acceptable to take the item and melt it down to use the mithril to make something else, as long as the original item is never used/wielded? Personally I would say yes, this is ok, but I'd like to hear other's opinions. I would hate to find a mithril corslet and not be able to make use of all that lovely metal. But note in particular that Fenorian lamps are made with mithril. Also, do you consider it ok to wield a silmaril on the way back up? (assuming against all logic you actually make it that far). Again, I would say yes, since that is the goal and point of the game, but it would (sort of) break the no-magic rule.

Those both sound fine to me. The list I provided HM with was supposed to be exhaustive (you're right that there are decisions you could make either way: I was trying to make those decisions, as the answer doesn't matter so much so long as everyone treats them the same). You're meant to just ignore the items in game (but you can melt down {special} mithril items if you like).

[half]

I threw 4 slowness pots at Morgy once and none of them stuck

That must have amused him no end! Or at least confused him. Who is this elf-lord who has penetrated to the depths of my realm and is throwing bottles of water at me?

[bron]

Ok, I can work with that. It doesn't particularly look possible, but it's worth a shot. One question: suppose I find a {special} item made out of mithril. Do you consider it acceptable to take the item and melt it down to use the mithril to make something else, as long as the original item is never used/wielded? Personally I would say yes, this is ok, but I'd like to hear other's opinions. I would hate to find a mithril corslet and not be able to make use of all that lovely metal. But note in particular that Fenorian lamps are made with mithril. Also, do you consider it ok to wield a silmaril on the way back up? (assuming against all logic you actually make it that far). Again, I would say yes, since that is the goal and point of the game, but it would (sort of) break the no-magic rule.

I'll think about this after the current competition is over.

[HallucinationMushroom]

I asked about Dwarf Masks... they are fair game as they are not magic... At least one source of rfire seems crucial.

I tried it here: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=13402
And Clouded tried it here: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=13760

All the particulars... I dunno.

[bron]

Scatha's no magic challenge: (I don't think this has been won either)
- Never use any {special} items, artefacts, jewellery, feanorian lamps, lesser jewels, or shadow cloaks.
- Don't use Staves or Trumpets
- No Songs
- Only Weaponsmith, Armoursmith and Artistry allowed in Smithing
- No Lore Master, Flaming Arrows, or Inner Light

This sounds interesting, but I guess I'd like Scatha (or someone) to define it in a little more detail. Is the above list of abilites to not use exhaustive? Does that mean that, say, Majesty in the Will tree is acceptable? How about Poison Resistance? If Lore-Master is forbidden, does that mean Lore-Keeper is a no-no as well, or not? How about Bane and Master Hunter? I assume Herbs are not counted as magic (?), but how about potions? All potions or only some potions (e.g. is Miruvor ok or not?). I assume Dwarf Masks are ok since they are not marked {special} ? Should I modify the source to not generate these items at all, or to generate something else acceptable in their place, or not modify the source at all and allow them to be generated but then ignore them?

Basically, I would really hate to spend 3 months working on something like this and then post a winner, only to have someone say "What? You took the Constitution ability? No, that's not allowed, this one doesn't count."

[HallucinationMushroom]

Don't forget the skellies! A stupid ascension trick would be to carry out all the goodly dead that you come across to give them a proper burial. The only good orc is a dead orc, so no orc skellies.

[taptap]

I never have open inventory slots... but I like the idea that almost everything in Sil has a purpose and nothing is wasted. No variety just for the sake of variety etc. So having an application for those potions other then ID-ing danger is good. I really would like to be able to use poison to poison arrows btw. - if it is only a very low number per potion this wouldn't change balance I guess, but maybe even this is unnecessary complexity.

Slowness against normal speed enemy has a stronger impact on that fight than any buff you could give yourself. So if you go against an orc unique as an Edain it might be worth it.

[debo]

Also, I don't remember blindness or awkwardness (or weakness) having any effect.

[debo]

I suppose you could slumber Morgy with a staff, but wouldn't your will have to be really high to even sport a fair chance? As far as staves go... back in the first public release I purposefully saved a charge of revelations to use to map the throne room and it didn't work... I can't remember the message, but it boiled down to I couldn't overcome Morgoth, I believe.

I tried only a small handful of singing only characters a long while back, and didn't get very far. The baddies didn't go to sleep fast enough, or didn't flee on demand. I don't know much about singing, though, other than slaying and sharpness. If you could survive the opening game I guess you'd be set.

I tried keeping !slow and !confuse until 600'+ and found them to be useless at that depth. I think monsters get a chance to resist (based on will?), because e.g. orcs fall victim to it almost every time, but deep monsters shrugged it off like it was nothing.

I threw 4 slowness pots at Morgy once and none of them stuck

YMMV

[HallucinationMushroom]

The other thing I'd like to throw out in the "tricks" section is the use of potions *against* monsters. Out of curiosity I once threw a !Slowness at a bad guy and he was immediately slowed. I must admit I haven't done it again to know if I just got lucky or whether it is a reliable way of incapacitating the enemy. I'd love to know if there is a save against it and if so, high likely. Does anyone else have any experience of this? Could it be useful enough to dedicate a slot to !Slowness or !Confusion and does !Blindness or !Awkwardness have any effect?

I sometimes read through Patashu's secret techs posts for fun, because they are actually interesting and a little snarky, and amuse me. Anyway, http://angband.oook.cz/forum/archive...hp/t-5216.html
Half goes on to answer the potion question but doesn't crunch numbers, but here it is pulled from that site anyway.

//Slowness, Quickness, True Sight, and Confusion. I'm not sure how useful it is. It is something I inherited from NPP, which was almost certainly influenced by NetHack (perhaps via some other variant). It could easily be removed if people think that is best. I'm not sure what I think. I wouldn't have added it myself. If it worked neatly for all potions and was well balanced, I'd like it. As is, it is a bit odd. I'm not sure if Slowness and Confusion are powerful or not (consider that you have to waste an inventory spot to carry them, and won't find many).//

[HallucinationMushroom]

I suppose you could slumber Morgy with a staff, but wouldn't your will have to be really high to even sport a fair chance? As far as staves go... back in the first public release I purposefully saved a charge of revelations to use to map the throne room and it didn't work... I can't remember the message, but it boiled down to I couldn't overcome Morgoth, I believe.

I tried only a small handful of singing only characters a long while back, and didn't get very far. The baddies didn't go to sleep fast enough, or didn't flee on demand. I don't know much about singing, though, other than slaying and sharpness. If you could survive the opening game I guess you'd be set.

[Psi]

The other thing I'd like to throw out in the "tricks" section is the use of potions *against* monsters. Out of curiosity I once threw a !Slowness at a bad guy and he was immediately slowed. I must admit I haven't done it again to know if I just got lucky or whether it is a reliable way of incapacitating the enemy. I'd love to know if there is a save against it and if so, high likely. Does anyone else have any experience of this? Could it be useful enough to dedicate a slot to !Slowness or !Confusion and does !Blindness or !Awkwardness have any effect?

[Psi]

Melee only would have to be impossible, I think. A fun competition would be who could amass the most experience with only melee, or kill the deepest unique, or some such arbitrary goal. In this same vein, I've often thought about which 1 skill is the most important. If you could win with only one skill, would it be stealth? Let's say you got lucky and found angrist, could you manage to hit the crown twice to knock it off, nab a silmaril and get out?
I know I couldn't do it, but, it seems plausible.

I've never looked closely enough at how staves work, but would a _Slumber help instead of actually trying to attack Morgoth?

In terms of winning with one skill, then song may be your best bet. Silence, Elbereth, Lorien and Mastery to get you past the bad guys. Freedom to get past obstacles. Lorien to drop the crown and then sharpness to prise the silmarils. With mastery and sharpness you could even kill lower evasion monsters with a big dice weapon... Voice management would be tough.

For me the biggest challenge is WildKhaine's turncounts at the top of the ladder! I lose nearly all of my characters through pushing too deep too quickly at the moment.