memorable randarts

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  • Timo Pietilä
    Prophet
    • Apr 2007
    • 4096

    Originally posted by Estie
    the Pair of Mithril Shod Boots 'Archal' [8,+21] <+12>
    -----------------------------------------------------
    +12 stealth, speed.
    ... Aggravates creatures nearby.
    From the set of my latest character (who didnt find the boots...thankfully). I would call them cursed.
    No kidding. +12 stealth in item that aggravates. Cursed indeed. I wish you could remove that kind of curses with remove curse.

    Comment

    • LostTemplar
      Knight
      • Aug 2009
      • 670

      BTW FAangband have special remove_contradictory () function to avoid such stuff.

      Comment

      • Magnate
        Angband Devteam member
        • May 2007
        • 5110

        Originally posted by LostTemplar
        BTW FAangband have special remove_contradictory () function to avoid such stuff.
        I wonder where Nick got that from :-)
        "Been away so long I hardly knew the place, gee it's good to be back home" - The Beatles

        Comment

        • Estie
          Veteran
          • Apr 2008
          • 2343

          the Steel Helm of Carfin [9,+16]: Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold


          Havent had any of these before.

          Comment

          • Timo Pietilä
            Prophet
            • Apr 2007
            • 4096

            Originally posted by Estie
            the Steel Helm of Carfin [9,+16]: Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold


            Havent had any of these before.
            IMO that is borderlining a bug. Artifacts should have something to make them special. This does not have anything.

            Comment

            • Estie
              Veteran
              • Apr 2008
              • 2343

              Originally posted by Timo Pietilä
              IMO that is borderlining a bug. Artifacts should have something to make them special. This does not have anything.
              Well there are bad artifacts, too; so having zero value ones isnt horrible, as long as they are rare enough.

              I wonder how much value the generator gives AC. Its probably impossible to get right, because the value of AC changes during the game, and similarly, of weight. Maybe assigning weight a negative value would be a good idea.

              This helmet was junk for me when I found it: early in the game and already at speed -1 from weight, I wasnt going to add more load for a bit of AC. If it had been a leather cap +16, I might have equipped it till something better turned up (like a hat of infravision).

              For the lategame weight is all but irrelevant (you go from speed 23 to 22 or so, who cares), but a small negative value adjustment shouldnt break the system there.

              Another option is to assign AC a value of zero. As long as the distribution of AC for the artifacts remains the same, youll end up with between 200 and 300 AC for the end kit anyway and the difference between the 2 is negligable.

              Comment

              • Timo Pietilä
                Prophet
                • Apr 2007
                • 4096

                Originally posted by Estie
                Well there are bad artifacts, too; so having zero value ones isnt horrible, as long as they are rare enough.
                IMO in order to become an artifact object needs to have something special. Something that makes people of the realm remember and recognize the thing.

                Comment

                • Estie
                  Veteran
                  • Apr 2008
                  • 2343

                  Originally posted by Timo Pietilä
                  IMO in order to become an artifact object needs to have something special. Something that makes people of the realm remember and recognize the thing.
                  And having high AC isn´t special in this sense, I take it, while having, say, fire resistance is. That means assigning no value to AC like suggested above would solve.
                  One could also require "at least 2 properties for each artifact"; I wonder if it would still be possible to get an AC only helm with extra weight or so.

                  Comment

                  • Timo Pietilä
                    Prophet
                    • Apr 2007
                    • 4096

                    Originally posted by Estie
                    And having high AC isn´t special in this sense, I take it, while having, say, fire resistance is. That means assigning no value to AC like suggested above would solve.
                    Well, there is Glaive of Pain which has nothing but insane damage (and now later pFear). Maybe if AC bonus would be higher than +20 which is unattainable with enchant item scrolls/spells it could qualify. At +16 however it is just barely better than ordinary steel helmet which someone had enchanted a lot. Only special features that thing had was ignore acid and immune to manastorm destruction (automatic from being artifact). Not even AC was exceptional.

                    BTW we need mithril helmets. Guards of the Citadel in Denethors court had those, so they should be rather common item (or at least possible base item meaning rarer than shallow helmets items, but more common than egos later).

                    Helmets are now:

                    Hard Leather Cap
                    Metal Cap
                    Iron Helm
                    and
                    Steel Helm

                    None of those ignore elements (acid).
                    (+ four crowns with base 0 AC)

                    Comment

                    • Philip
                      Knight
                      • Jul 2009
                      • 909

                      Yeah, the Glaive of pain only has lots and lots of damage, but higher damage dice count for a lot, and honestly, +30 is insane. Damage is useful, unlike AC, which is not useful for much. It is handy against mobs of monsters with attacks that do HP damage, as opposed to inventory damage or character damage. Actually, the subsection of those monsters you fight hand-to-hand.

                      For an objects AC to be interesting, it would have to give at least 50 more AC than I would reasonably expect, since the Glaive has about 10 or so more damage than I would reasonably expect on an artifact. If the helm gave 60-80 AC or so, it would be an interesting object.

                      I agree about mithril helms, feels fairly natural. I can't think of anything else that is mentioned to be mithril, but gauntlets would qualify, too.

                      Comment

                      • PowerWyrm
                        Prophet
                        • Apr 2008
                        • 2986

                        Originally posted by Timo Pietilä
                        IMO that is borderlining a bug. Artifacts should have something to make them special. This does not have anything.
                        I have already reported this (artifacts with only extra tohit/todam/toac), and the problem is that many artifacts have a really low power. In that case, there's usually not much room for anything else than a weak ability or extra tohit/todam/toac. The same helm with +6 toac instead of +16 and feather falling would not have been much more special...
                        PWMAngband variant maintainer - check https://github.com/draconisPW/PWMAngband (or http://www.mangband.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=9) to learn more about this new variant!

                        Comment

                        • Timo Pietilä
                          Prophet
                          • Apr 2007
                          • 4096

                          Originally posted by PowerWyrm
                          I have already reported this (artifacts with only extra tohit/todam/toac), and the problem is that many artifacts have a really low power. In that case, there's usually not much room for anything else than a weak ability or extra tohit/todam/toac. The same helm with +6 toac instead of +16 and feather falling would not have been much more special...
                          But it would be special. I wonder, which item from original set has so low value that it generates randart without any value?

                          I think the root problem here is that randart calc values AC way too high. 9+16 is next to nothing, it's immediate junk unless it is dlvl1 item with rarity "found always", and even then it was in item that is heavy so I would probably still not use it. +10 AC less with FF should be about ten times more valuable at those shallow levels that +16AC could have some value.

                          In randart generation anything less than +20 AC (as bonus, not whole) should count nothing at all.

                          Comment

                          • Derakon
                            Prophet
                            • Dec 2009
                            • 9022

                            Originally posted by Timo Pietilä
                            But it would be special. I wonder, which item from original set has so low value that it generates randart without any value?
                            The Paur* gauntlets leap to mind (especially Paurnen), as do Beruthiel and Camlost, who have so many penalties that their values are frankly negative IMO. I don't know the variance on object power, but I suppose it's possible that an exceptionally poor roll for the *thancs or Thengel could also result in a powerless artifact. Gorlim is pretty terrible too, though at least it has +to-dam which ought to boost its perceived power significantly.

                            Actually, there's a point -- how are "bad" standarts handled by the randart generator? It should try to make an equivalent "bad" randart, not just a randart with equivalent total power. In other words, when evaluating standarts, the power of both the benefits of the item, and the penalties on it, should both be determined; then the randart should try for equal power on both. So e.g. Beruthiel might have a positive power of 50 and a negative power of 75; I wouldn't be surprised if currently the game tries to make a randart with power -25, when it should try to make a randart with positive power 50 and negative power -75 (with some variance of course).

                            Comment

                            • Timo Pietilä
                              Prophet
                              • Apr 2007
                              • 4096

                              Originally posted by Derakon
                              Actually, there's a point -- how are "bad" standarts handled by the randart generator? It should try to make an equivalent "bad" randart, not just a randart with equivalent total power. In other words, when evaluating standarts, the power of both the benefits of the item, and the penalties on it, should both be determined; then the randart should try for equal power on both. So e.g. Beruthiel might have a positive power of 50 and a negative power of 75; I wouldn't be surprised if currently the game tries to make a randart with power -25, when it should try to make a randart with positive power 50 and negative power -75 (with some variance of course).
                              I thought of that and I think many of those "bad" artifacts are actually quite close to zero power if you combine bad and good qualities. Beruthiel could be the one that one was based on. None of the purely good ones are close to zero power.

                              Weakest "good" artifact I can think of is Thorongil, but even that is quite a lot better than steel helmet with mediocre bonus to AC.

                              Comment

                              • Estie
                                Veteran
                                • Apr 2008
                                • 2343

                                I checked the helm, it was based on one of the paur gauntlets.

                                Comment

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