Playing with nerfed archery, missile rebalance

[d_m]

Timo's got the comp won then

Huh.

When is the comp over? I can wait until then.

EDIT: the patch is available at http://bearhome.net/erik/ranged2.patch -- in the interest of comp fairness I will wait until it's over to check this in.

[PowerDiver]

the patch is available at http://bearhome.net/erik/ranged2.patch -- in the interest of comp fairness I will wait until it's over to check this in.

Is the info code disjoint from the damage code? We need to make sure that the description matches the change.

[d_m]

Is the info code disjoint from the damage code? We need to make sure that the description matches the change.

It is currently disjoint and I have changed both. If you feel like auditing the code I would appreciate it.

I wanted to create a struct that could be used both for doing actual attacks and also for reporting on attacks. But that starts to get complicated, since doing an actual attack uses the map (to check for LOS, etc) as well as player status and target status, whereas the info code considers all possible kinds of slays/resists in the "normal" case.

[PowerDiver]

It is currently disjoint and I have changed both. If you feel like auditing the code I would appreciate it.

I wanted to create a struct that could be used both for doing actual attacks and also for reporting on attacks. But that starts to get complicated, since doing an actual attack uses the map (to check for LOS, etc) as well as player status and target status, whereas the info code considers all possible kinds of slays/resists in the "normal" case.

I figured you would know without me having to look. I was trying to be lazy. But since you ask, I will take a look when I feel alert.

[d_m]

I figured you would know without me having to look. I was trying to be lazy. But since you ask, I will take a look when I feel alert.

Yeah, I tried to test it by hand, but it's entirely possible I made a mistake. Very few changes I've made to the codebase have been error-free...

[Tiburon Silverflame]

Made a post about a change to archery for rangers, over in the whole "make the game tougher" thread. Whole post can be found here:

http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=3355&page=15

Executive summary: instead of extra shots, how about giving rangers extra shooting power? Something like +1 at 12th, 24th, 36th, 48th...but I'm far from wedded to those levels.

The advantage is that the ranger's 25% to 50% better than anyone else...not 50% to 200%.

[fizzix]

Made a post about a change to archery for rangers, over in the whole "make the game tougher" thread. Whole post can be found here:

http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=3355&page=15

Executive summary: instead of extra shots, how about giving rangers extra shooting power? Something like +1 at 12th, 24th, 36th, 48th...but I'm far from wedded to those levels.

The advantage is that the ranger's 25% to 50% better than anyone else...not 50% to 200%.

Changing extra shots to extra might for rangers was one of my changes.

[Tiburon Silverflame]

Cool.

But note that, with the change to multipliers adding, the scale for extra might changes considerably. Given that (in the later stages) typical shots will have x7 power, with a typical range of x4 to a high of about x10 (Bard vs. dragons, with nothing else adding to power), +2 extra might only takes that x10 to x12. Not that big a deal.

[Derakon]

I wouldn't call a 20% increase in power "not that big a deal". It's just not as gobstoppingly powerful as a 100% increase.

[ewert]

Nono, the +might instead of +shots is MY change. Joking aside, I agree with Derakon that +2 might is plenty enough, even if one has additive multipliers instead of multiplive. 5 hits paladin vs 6 hits warrior, oh lookie, 20%. Nobody complains that the warrior extra 6th hit is wussy.

Btw, my new rogue char just got first randart: short bow (darn) +9 +9 (darn) +3 shots LOL, pre stat-gain 4 hits melee (brawn potion id-by-use =P) or 4 shots archery, hahaha =P

[Tiburon Silverflame]

But that's the ranger's major advantage; he's really, really good at shooting. Right now, barring extra shots, the ranger is *200%* more powerful, 100% more powerful with +1 shot.

Note, too, that the shot-power increases only count with bows, if it's implemented the way extra shots are. A warrior with Umbar is equal to a ranger with Bard; each is getting x7 from his launcher. Against dragons, Bard will beat Slay Dragon ammo, but in any other case they're equal.

If the +2 might is proper...did anyone even stop to consider the complete imbalance implied by the +2 shots, before this? If that wasn't *ridiculous* from day one, then the +20% damage IS 'no big deal'.

On ewert's randart: Extra shots needs to be rarer than speed bonuses.

[Derakon]

The ranger is really good at shooting, but he's no slouch at melee or spellcasting either. Thus an outright nerf is not out of the question.

[PowerDiver]

The ranger still does more damage, assuming launcher multipliers and shots and plusses are equal. That is because the ranger gets a better hit roll with missile attacks. This could be exaggerated with a change in criticals to depend upon hit roll rather than weight, as discussed elsewhere.

[nullfame]

Don't forget he is only second to rogue in stealth.

[ewert]

If the +2 might is proper...did anyone even stop to consider the complete imbalance implied by the +2 shots, before this? If that wasn't *ridiculous* from day one, then the +20% damage IS 'no big deal'.

The fact that ranger ranged damage has been way insane and overpowered for soooo long is easy to find in old forum posts or newsgroups. But as this is a single player game, and maintainers are volunteers, and so forth, there have of course been changes that have seemed "cool" but have indeed been way way way nuts in balance.

So yes, +2 shots is insane. +2 might is proper. On the whole, archery is overpowered even without extra shots, TBH, compared to melee and magic.

Warriors get a bit better melee and +20% dmg (6th hit), few HP and not much else compared to paladins, who get, oh, spells. +20% ranged is IMHO easily enough for rangers, since rangers already have huge utility and other aspects in the class that are good in themselves.