Playing with nerfed archery, missile rebalance

[nppangband]

I've been saying for years that criticals should depend on the to-hit roll. A crit should be about hitting the precise weak spot you are aiming for. Weight is already incorporated in the damage dice.

Yes. The more I think about it, the more I like it. I am considering it for weapons as well.

This idea received surprisingly [to me] little support in rgra.

Well, it will definitely get tried out in NPP.

[PowerDiver]

Well, it will definitely get tried out in NPP.

I was wondering whether you should define the crit number to be (hit roll)/(ac) as integer arithmetic. Then 1 is a normal hit, and higher numbers could be higher levels of criticals. ISTR I was not entirely happy with that idea, but I lost interest in worrying about it when the idea didn't get much support.

[d_m]

I am still committed to trying to scale back archery beyond just additive multipliers; I think archery is over-powered even when using unbranded, non-slay ammo. But you all are right, that last patch was way too harsh.

My current plan is to try something like this:

DMG = (bow-dmg * bow-mult) + (ammo-dmg * ammo-mult) + (bow-mult * ammo-mult * ammo-dice)

I like this because it makes mithril and seeker arrows dramatically better than other kinds. It also does not modify the "default" case where a character uses normal ammo (no matter what kind of launcher is being used).

Anyway, I should have a patch for this up soon.

[fizzix]

I am still committed to trying to scale back archery beyond just additive multipliers; I think archery is over-powered even when using unbranded, non-slay ammo. But you all are right, that last patch was way too harsh.

My current plan is to try something like this:

DMG = (bow-dmg * bow-mult) + (ammo-dmg * ammo-mult) + (bow-mult * ammo-mult * ammo-dice)

I like this because it makes mithril and seeker arrows dramatically better than other kinds. It also does not modify the "default" case where a character uses normal ammo (no matter what kind of launcher is being used).

Anyway, I should have a patch for this up soon.

Archery is only unbalanced with unbranded missiles when you have extra shots. Otherwise, it's very good.

[PowerDiver]

Archery is only unbalanced with unbranded missiles when you have extra shots. Otherwise, it's very good.

Part of the problem is starting spellcasters with only one blow. They prefer archery because the 3x means that each enchant scroll is +3 damage per round instead of +1 damage per round. Another way to balance is to give pure spellcasters better melee, e.g. 2 blows with a dagger so that at least they get +2 damage per round per enchant scroll.

[d_m]

Archery is only unbalanced with unbranded missiles when you have extra shots. Otherwise, it's very good.

I disagree. Obviously play styles and game changes go hand-in-hand, but I think people's expectations for how good archery should be are way too high right now.

If people find that they have to rely more on melee, spells and devices because archery alone no longer does enough damage, that won't bother me at all, anymore than I am bothered by mages often needing to use melee or archery.

Obviously archery still needs to be useful, and should continue being a major part of the ranger's arsenal, but that still leaves a lot of room to tone it down.

[Derakon]

Everyone should be able to have useful archery, just as everyone should be able to have useful melee and useful spellcasting (modulo the warrior of course). It's one of the three main things that players can do in the game. Some classes should be better at it than others, but it definitely shouldn't only be of interest to rangers.

[d_m]

Everyone should be able to have useful archery, just as everyone should be able to have useful melee and useful spellcasting (modulo the warrior of course). It's one of the three main things that players can do in the game. Some classes should be better at it than others, but it definitely shouldn't only be of interest to rangers.

Agreed. Like I said, I think it will be possible to tone it down but keep it useful.

[nppangband]

I am still committed to trying to scale back archery beyond just additive multipliers; I think archery is over-powered even when using unbranded, non-slay ammo. But you all are right, that last patch was way too harsh.

My current plan is to try something like this:

DMG = (bow-dmg * bow-mult) + (ammo-dmg * ammo-mult) + (bow-mult * ammo-mult * ammo-dice)

I like this because it makes mithril and seeker arrows dramatically better than other kinds. It also does not modify the "default" case where a character uses normal ammo (no matter what kind of launcher is being used).

Anyway, I should have a patch for this up soon.

Interesting formula. Definitely a big improvement over the current. Will the +to-damage be applied before or after the multiplier?

[fizzix]

I disagree. Obviously play styles and game changes go hand-in-hand, but I think people's expectations for how good archery should be are way too high right now.

If people find that they have to rely more on melee, spells and devices because archery alone no longer does enough damage, that won't bother me at all, anymore than I am bothered by mages often needing to use melee or archery.

Obviously archery still needs to be useful, and should continue being a major part of the ranger's arsenal, but that still leaves a lot of room to tone it down.

Using ubranded seeker bolts with a good multipler (+20) and a x5 xbow with a decent multipler (+20) we get.

(12+20+20)*5=260 damage per missile.

To me this is probably about as high as you're reasonably going to get with unbranded missiles. It'll be a lot less than endgame melee, and less than endgame spellcasting even. It'll be a poor choice but at least it's somewhat viable.

Your formula gives:
(20*5) + (20*1) + (5*1*12) = 180. Maybe still relevant, but probably not.

I still say that keeping the unbranded damage roughly the same and reducing the brand effectiveness so that endgame quality x3 branded missiles are between 300 and 450 and you're good. Then fix extra shots.

And forget about Umbar. Umbar doesn't exist in randart games and there's rarely anything close to it. It is uber-powerful, it should be a no-brainer archery weapon if it's found, and it should be as rare as ringil.

[d_m]

I still say that keeping the unbranded damage roughly the same and reducing the brand effectiveness so that endgame quality x3 branded missiles are between 300 and 450 and you're good. Then fix extra shots.

And forget about Umbar. Umbar doesn't exist in randart games and there's rarely anything close to it. It is uber-powerful, it should be a no-brainer archery weapon if it's found, and it should be as rare as ringil.

Rather than argue about this, I'm going to check in additive brands now. I think you're right that it will fix problems with the end-game.

I still think that the equation between melee and missile weapons early on is messed up, but that is probably a different problem...

[Tiburon Silverflame]

d_m proposed that the bonus damage be applied AFTER the multiplier for the bow and for any brand. The problem noted is, the damage ratings on missiles is so low that it doesn't do any good.

Well, doesn't that immediately suggest a simpler solution?

Increase the missiles' base damage.

Make regular arrows d8, regular bolts d10. Mithral and seeker remain 3x and 4x better.

4d8 with a x7 multiplier is 126 average; so it's gonna be in the range of 140 to 150 with the damage bonuses.

npp: d_m's later formula applies multipliers at different points. Let's take Amras, firing +10 Slay Evil seeker arrows. Amras is x4, with +15 damage.

The final damage ==
Bow damage part == bow mult x bow's damage bonus == 4 x 15 == 60
Arrow base damage == bow mult x brand mult x arrow base damage == (4 x 2 x 4d4) which averages 80
Arrow brand bonus damage == brand multiplier x arrow bonus damage == 2 x 10 == 20

So this would net out at 160 when the brand applies. When it doesn't, it's still doing 60 in the first part, 40 in the second, and 10 in the third, for 110.

[fizzix]

4d8 with a x7 multiplier is 126 average; so it's gonna be in the range of 140 to 150 with the damage bonuses.

x7 multiplier is not realistic. Change it to a x5.

[Tiburon Silverflame]

fizzix: x7 multiplier is a x5 bow using slay evil ammo...multipliers for bow and brand added together, then applying to the base missile damage only. As per d_m's suggestion.

[Nick]

Rather than argue about this, I'm going to check in additive brands now. I think you're right that it will fix problems with the end-game.

Timo's got the comp won then