[Announce] PosChengband 1.0.0

[chris]

Are you open to replacing or redoing some quests?

Yes. And if by redoing you mean snagging working quest files redone by other people, then double yes! I can cut and paste with the best of them

I tried the quest out, and yeah, it will be a bit harder. Much harder for unprepared non-stealthy characters, actually. But the reward justifies this, IMO.

Thanks for the hard work. And I think doing quests *is* hard work ... I've sunk many hours into The Barrow Downs and it remains my lone contribution to the quest collection. Actually, I'm not sure Hengband added any either, at least off the top of my head. They might all be Zangband originals!

[clouded]

Are you open to replacing or redoing some quests? To be truthful, quite a lot of them I don't find very fun. The one I really like is the Vault (this is by far the best quest in my opinion), the Cloning Pits, Barrow Downs and the Old Castle are enjoyable too. The reason I think the Vault is the best quest is because it is very randomised; you don't know where Sting is or what the monsters will be, so it is unpredictable and exciting. The Cloning Pits and the Old Castle aren't randomised, but they can still be unpredictable and can unfold in different ways, the Barrows isn't really like this, but it's a good (simple) design and the monsters are decent, I do think it could come before the Vault though, it's easier I think.

A lot of the ones around Danger:15-25 I don't like, the monsters aren't particularly fun and the rewards aren't incentive enough to do them when they might actually be challenging (at this point in the game you gain power very quickly, so it would be hard to actually make them challenging and worth it I suppose).

What do you think of this as a replacement for Doom Quest II? The monster makeup is roughly the same (4 Iron Lichs, 5 Barons, 14 Revenants, 1 Maulotaur, 1 Hell Knight, 4 Arch-viles) but the terrain should be much more interesting and challenging. The original map is too long, half of it you are just fighting imps and lemures, and all of the monsters are segmented behind granite.

# Monsters and Terrain

# Randomise the position of the Maulotaur and Hell Knight
?:[EQU [MOD $RANDOM34 4] 0]
# Floor with Maulotaur
F:h:FLOOR:8:723
# Floor with Hell Knight
F:i:FLOOR:8:731
# Floor with Baron of Hell
F:j:FLOOR:8:609
# Floor with Revenant
F:k:FLOOR:8:555

?:[EQU [MOD $RANDOM34 4] 1]
F:i:FLOOR:8:723
F:j:FLOOR:8:731
F:k:FLOOR:8:609
F:h:FLOOR:8:555

?:[EQU [MOD $RANDOM34 4] 2]
F:j:FLOOR:8:723
F:k:FLOOR:8:731
F:h:FLOOR:8:609
F:i:FLOOR:8:555

?:[EQU [MOD $RANDOM34 4] 3]
F:k:FLOOR:8:723
F:h:FLOOR:8:731
F:i:FLOOR:8:609
F:j:FLOOR:8:555

?:1

# Floor with Arch-Vile
F:d:FLOOR:8:357

# Floor with Revenant
F:e:FLOOR:8:555

# Floor with Baron of Hell
F:f:FLOOR:8:609

# Floor with Iron Lich
F:g:FLOOR:8:666

# Deep lava
F:l:DEEP_LAVA:2

# Permawalls
F:x:PERMANENT:8

# Dungeon layout
D:XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
D:XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxX
D:XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxlxxxlllxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxX
D:XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxlxxlxxxlxllxlllllllxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxX
D:XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxlxlllxlllxlllllllllllllllxxxxlllxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxX
D:XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxlllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxllllllllllllllllllll..lllllllllllllllllxxxxxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxxlxxxxllll...lll..lllllll.......llllllll....llllxxxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxllxxxllll...........lllll..........ll........lllllxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxllllllll............lllll.f....................llllxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxlllllll......e........l.ll............h..........llllxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxllll...................llll....e.................lllllxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxllll...................llll..................e...lllxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxllll......xx.xx........ll...........xx.xx......llllxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxllll.....xxx.xxx...e.....l.........xxx.xxx....lllllxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxllll......xxTTTxx...................xxTTTxx..llllllxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxlllll.......TgT......l..l.......e.....TgT...lllllllxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxxlll..i..xxTTTxx.....l.lld.........xxTTTxxlllllllllxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxllll.....xxx.xxx.l..l.llllll.....llxxx.xxxllllllllllxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxxllll.....xx.xx...l.llllllllll..llllxx.xxllllllllllxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxlllll............l.lllllllxllllllllllllllllllllllllxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxxlll............lllllxllllllxllllllllllllll..lllllxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxxllll............lllxxlxlllxxxlllllllllll.....llllxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxllll.....e......llllxxxl...lxlxlllllll.l.l....llllxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxllll.............lllllxl.....lxlllllllll......llllxxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxllllll............lllllxl.......lxllllll.........llllxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxllllll.f.......dllllllll...<...llllllld........f.llllxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxllllll.........llllllll.......llllll...e........llllxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxllllll........lllllllxll.....lxlllll...........llllxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxllll....e..llllllllllxxl...lxlxllll..........lllxxxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxxllll.....llllllllllllxxlllxlxxlll............lllxxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxxxlllllll...llllllllxlxllllllxlll.........e...llllxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxxlllllllll....llll.llllxxlllxlll...............lllxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxxlllllllllxx.xxll....lllllllll......xx.xx.....llllxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxxxlllllllxxx.xxxl...l..lllllll.....xxx.xxx....lllxxxxxxxxxxX
D:XxxxxxxxxxllllllllxxTTTxx......l.lllllll....xxTTTxx....lllxxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxlllllll....TgT........l.llllllll.....TgT.......lllxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxllllllll..xxTTTxx..e..l.lllxlxlxl...xxTTTxx.....lllllxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxlllllll....xxx.xxx........llllxxll...xxx.xxx.j....lllllxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxllllllll......xx.xx.........ldlxlxll....xx.xx.......llllxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxllllll....e............e..l..lxlll................llllxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxllll............k.........llllll..e...........lllllxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxllll....................llllll.............lllllxxxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxxllll.............ll...l.flllll...........llllxxxxxxxxxxxxxX
D:Xxxxxxxxxxllllll.....llll.lllll..lllllllll....llllllllxxxxxxxxxxxxxxX
D:XxxxxxxxxxxlllllllllllllllllllllllllxlllllllllllllllllxxxxxxxxxxxxxxX
D:XxxxxxxxxxxxlllllllllllllllxxlxllllxxxlllllllllxxllllxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxX
D:XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxlllllllxxllxxxxxlxxxxxxxllxxlllxxxxlxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxX
D:XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxllllxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxX
D:XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxlxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxX
D:XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxX
D:XxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxX
D:XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
# Starting position
P:26:34

Edit: You have my sympathies for the Possessor work, it looks like a real grind.

[chris]

Other corpses (depending on options) give you 10K versus 1.2K HP without any disadvantages. (Basically some of the formulas are pretty broken.)

I won't be giving the Possessor the monster's hp. Instead, there might be a line in r_info like

P:Copy:Human:Mage

that sets initial stat, skill and life rating options. This means the player will end up with HP comparable to a Human Mage in this case (This example is from The Mouth of Sauron who normally has 7000hp).

Multiple weapons are already rather balanced in PosCheng ... At least nobody has won a Marilith yet and the single Xorn winner was only single wielding!

[AnonymousHero]

I'll keep that in mind as a nice flavorful alternative. Are people really going to start scum for wanted unique lists? I don't think I would ever do that

(...)

You think too highly of us compulsive scummers . It's a terrible personality trait, but I have a very hard time not trying to optimize the game even if it ultimately leads to scummy and boring play :/.

As for possessing uniques being OP, I'm not so sure that will always be the case. In fact, most monsters tend to be pretty narrowly designed, with only a handful of powers (e.g. Combat Echizen can blink, cast invulnerability and launch rockets, but not much else). Cutting The Possessor off from uniques would be cruel, IMO.

I think that this is exactly it -- if uniques aren't hugely more powerful than non-uniques anyway, then allowing them to be possessed isn't a requirement, but might be a nice little bonus. In this case you (as a powergaming player) don't really need a specific unique corpse, so it's not worth your while to (start-or-any-other-)scum for it.

The major issue in ToME 2.x is that a few of the uniques are so ridiculously overpowered compared to posessing "standard" monsters -- one of the corpses has 3 weapon slots vs. 1 slots for all others worth possessing. Other corpses (depending on options) give you 10K versus 1.2K HP without any disadvantages. (Basically some of the formulas are pretty broken.)

[chris]

I've been thinking about the problem with possessors being able to posses an unique and uniques dropping their corpse with a 100% certainty. The problem is you need {Wanted} corpses, but that makes getting certain unique corpses pretty easy as you always get their corpse.

What if you introduce a new type of item I'll call "Trophies". If you kill a certain {wanted} unique, instead of a 100% corpse drop you could get an 100% trophy drop which could be the "left pinky toe of xxx", "an eyeball of xxx", "a piece of skin of xxx", ect (be creative). This way you can keep the bounty quests for uniques and still reduce the drop rate of corpses.

I'll keep that in mind as a nice flavorful alternative. Are people really going to start scum for wanted unique lists? I don't think I would ever do that

Another easier alternative would be to make wanted drops always be skeletons. I'm making The Possessor only able to possess corpses, so this would really mess them up. But then I guess people would start scum the wanted unique list to make sure what they want is *not* on the list. Ho Hum. Battling scummers is like killing lice ... They breed too fast!

As for possessing uniques being OP, I'm not so sure that will always be the case. In fact, most monsters tend to be pretty narrowly designed, with only a handful of powers (e.g. Combat Echizen can blink, cast invulnerability and launch rockets, but not much else). Cutting The Possessor off from uniques would be cruel, IMO.

BTW, implementing this is taking longer than expected. In the end, I reluctantly dove into extensive mods to r_info.txt. So next release will be 2.0, but I can't say when that will be ...

EDIT: And then I promise to start a new thread!!

[Arjen]

I've been thinking about the problem with possessors being able to posses an unique and uniques dropping their corpse with a 100% certainty. The problem is you need {Wanted} corpses, but that makes getting certain unique corpses pretty easy as you always get their corpse.

What if you introduce a new type of item I'll call "Trophies". If you kill a certain {wanted} unique, instead of a 100% corpse drop you could get an 100% trophy drop which could be the "left pinky toe of xxx", "an eyeball of xxx", "a piece of skin of xxx", ect (be creative). This way you can keep the bounty quests for uniques and still reduce the drop rate of corpses.

[Brouhaha]

Disenchantment is the great bane of the Death Sword, much like Blindness is the great bane of the Beholder

Checks and balances, I get it now. I'll just have to expand my detection and escape options, then! Thanks for the speedy and well written response.

[chris]

I don't want to derail the Possessor train, but I have one more question about the Death Sword monster class.

Every level up, you gain a plus to hit or damage. As far as I know, there isn't any way to otherwise increase those numbers. But one nasty fight with a "disenchanter [anything]" and your body is suddenly and permanently stripped of some, most, or ALL of those plusses.

Beyond farming for the very rare disenchantment resistance, which isn't a 100% guarantee, is there any other way to avoid this fate?

1) Don't even suggest 'avoid the monsters' because I've had a Dis. Beast summoned right next to me while confused and unable to escape.

2) Should monsters even be able to disenchant your body? Its an intrinsic party of your class. It'd hate to play a rogue whose stealth could be permanently reduced by a type of elemental attack. (Though one would imagine a rogue just set ablaze would lose their stealth at least until they were extinguished.)

3) Does 'disenchantment' do any damage or is it simply meant to wreak havoc on a normal character's gear? Should a Death Sword start off partially or fully resistant to this attack as they are a gearless class?

Disenchantment is the great bane of the Death Sword, much like Blindness is the great bane of the Beholder (I like it when monster races have a stunning weakness . Anyway, here is my Disenchantment summary:

[1] For everybody, disenchantment may mess up player equipment, removing pluses and even pvals on occasion.

[2] For everybody, disenchantment may "disenchant" the player by removing one or more temporary buffs (Things like haste self, double resistance, heroism, blessed, etc).

[3] For the Death-Sword, disenchantment may also mess up player equipment, but this is just the current weapon form. You won't lose pvals this way, but may lose pluses to hit and damage. Note these can be repaired using a town service (in the Fighter's Hall) or with a scroll (*Enchant Weapon*), but only up to a point (+12 max).

[4] For the Death-Sword, disenchantment may also drain absorbed essences. This will happen from time to time, and is simply part of the game, balancing out the Death-Sword's incredible end game power. Of course, you can repair this by just absorbing more stuff, or by having so many essences absorbed that the drain doesn't cause you to lose anything. Early on, though, I would run from those dwarves!

[5] Disenchantment resistance reduces the odds of all of these effects, but does not provide immunity with just a single source. Generally, two sources of disenchantment resistance will give immunity, except for [4] which requires quite a bit more. Like I said, this is the great bane of the Death-Sword!

HTH

[Brouhaha]

Off topic. So very sorry.

I don't want to derail the Possessor train, but I have one more question about the Death Sword monster class.

Every level up, you gain a plus to hit or damage. As far as I know, there isn't any way to otherwise increase those numbers. But one nasty fight with a "disenchanter [anything]" and your body is suddenly and permanently stripped of some, most, or ALL of those plusses.

Beyond farming for the very rare disenchantment resistance, which isn't a 100% guarantee, is there any other way to avoid this fate?

1) Don't even suggest 'avoid the monsters' because I've had a Dis. Beast summoned right next to me while confused and unable to escape.

2) Should monsters even be able to disenchant your body? Its an intrinsic party of your class. It'd hate to play a rogue whose stealth could be permanently reduced by a type of elemental attack. (Though one would imagine a rogue just set ablaze would lose their stealth at least until they were extinguished.)

3) Does 'disenchantment' do any damage or is it simply meant to wreak havoc on a normal character's gear? Should a Death Sword start off partially or fully resistant to this attack as they are a gearless class?

[AnonymousHero]

To add to Arjen's explanation: In ToME 2.x it isn't actually the act of possessing a body which destroys corpses, it's leaving a body (for the purposes of possessing another one) which does. As long as you have the corpse of your desired body you are guaranteed to be able to possess it. For common monsters getting a body doesn't usually present any problem, you just have to kill enough of them. If you want the body of a unique monster you'd either need to pump the Corpse-preservation skill ridiculously high or just get lucky. (You can actually get two shots at the uniques through an artifact scroll which brought all unique monsters back from the dead, but I digress.)

Pushing Corpse-preservation very high means that lots of corpses litter the dungeon which can get extremely annoying (TMJ). If I ever get around to it, this should probably really be a toggle-able skill so that you can choose when to use your Corpse-preservation skill.

There is another mechanic which is highly dangerous for possessors, namely that overexertion (casting the body's spells without enough mana) will cause a "system shock" which forces you out of your current body with 1 HP -- potentially without leaving the corpse behind. Usually that means instant death. (Wearing a cursed item will prevent leaving the body, but still reduces HP to 1.)

[Arjen]

Help me out with Possessor Rules:

[1] Player picks a normal race and this choice effects their xp penalty. But they only get racial stat adjustments, skill adjustments and powers when they are *not* possessing another body. When possessing, their race will list the current body, and they will gain powers and abilities based on that form instead.

[2] Player cannot possess a new form until they leave their current form. Dispossessing a form has a very high chance of destroying that body.

[3] Possessing a new form can fail, depending on player level vs the new form's level. If it fails and the new form is a unique, there is a chance the new body gets destroyed.

Like I said, I haven't really played possessors before, so I am unsure how other variants have handled these sorts of things.

Thoughts?

EDIT (Based on previous post which I just read):
-OR-
[1] Possessor is a racial choice. Class is monster. The default body is a "Soul" that is a weak incorporeal, pathetic little ghost in search of a body.

I like this better, actually. But I'm curious why all the TOME dumps are Death Mold Possessors (i.e., there is a racial choice).

Help! (Or I'll just do it the second way!)

Death Molds are a overpowered race with a very crappy movement/speed. Being a possessor these negatives disappear but the overpowered stays. I always felt it was a munchkin combo like berserker ghosts. But thats why there are so many Death Molds Possessors.

[1] Possessors could just start with a (possessed) Player body (can be destroyed when failed to posses). You would be a crappy warrior when you started, like a rogue without stealth and spell.

[2] In TOME the "soul" you would be between bodies had 1hp no equipment slots. So you had to be 100% sure you were safe.

[3] In TOME you could even find an artifact Player body which couldn't be destroyed when possessing it failed. So you would always have a corpse you can return to when you fail to posses that GWoP destroying the corpse (you did need to carry it with you). But this was still very dangerous to do, same with carrying a corpse as an Ancient dragon wasn't 4.0lbs but more like 500lbs. You would be slow as hell carrying them around. So finding the time and place to posses a corpse was crucial.

Making it a monster race makes sense, or else I would just start with the most crappy race so I would have a very low xp penalty. Why start as a Demigod when you won't get the benefits of one? (Or get OP stuff like Death Molds)

I hope this all made a bit of sense, it's late. (I just copied everything I know about tome possessing.)

*edit* Some more explaining

[Nick]

[1] Possessor is a racial choice. Class is monster. The default body is a "Soul" that is a weak incorporeal, pathetic little ghost in search of a body.

This seems best to me. IIRC Pos did it very similarly to this.

[AnonymousHero]

As for possessing uniques: We'll cross that bridge when we get there. I think I will make it so uniques no longer automatically drop corpses unless they are wanted.

(Just speaking from personal experience and preferences, here. I don't claim game design knowledge!)

That would kill any interest in Possessors whatsoever for me. Maybe that has to do with the way Possession is set up in ToME 2.x where it's only the corpses who have enough HP (which you "take over" as a Possessor) and equipment slots you care about. In particular the equipment slots tend to dominate the experience of being a Possessor. It's basically only unique corpses that have the golden combination of enough HP and enough arms. Having multiple arms is a Big Deal in *bands.

EDIT: Just noticed "unless they are wanted". That would basically mean that either players startscum until $DESIRED_UNIQUE is wanted or don't care about possessing uniques (which would ruin the class for me; see above). Neither seems like a good option to me given that all *bands derived from Hengband are already prone to start-scumming.

[chris]

Help me out with Possessor Rules:

[1] Player picks a normal race and this choice effects their xp penalty. But they only get racial stat adjustments, skill adjustments and powers when they are *not* possessing another body. When possessing, their race will list the current body, and they will gain powers and abilities based on that form instead.

[2] Player cannot possess a new form until they leave their current form. Dispossessing a form has a very high chance of destroying that body.

[3] Possessing a new form can fail, depending on player level vs the new form's level. If it fails and the new form is a unique, there is a chance the new body gets destroyed.

Like I said, I haven't really played possessors before, so I am unsure how other variants have handled these sorts of things.

Thoughts?

EDIT (Based on previous post which I just read):
-OR-
[1] Possessor is a racial choice. Class is monster. The default body is a "Soul" that is a weak incorporeal, pathetic little ghost in search of a body.

I like this better, actually. But I'm curious why all the TOME dumps are Death Mold Possessors (i.e., there is a racial choice).

Help! (Or I'll just do it the second way!)

[emulord]

The reason the possessor of posband werent a big succes was the pretty hard start you had. The possessor is just so extremely weak, you have trouble killing the weakest of monsters so you can get another weak body. Yeeks were stronger in posband than a possessor. I just gave up on them.

You didnt know how to play a possessor :P. I dont post dumps, but I got a few up to level 30, before the coded in monsters start being too rare/ i got bored and nervous because it took forever to get there. You had to know which monsters drop corpses (edit files), then dive and hunt and kill that one specific monster, then survive back to Dlvl1. The -MM shouldnt be used on townies. Ghosts, Dark elves were good targets, as were floating eyes (really good magic device, telepathy). I tried playing centipedes or worms, but they just cant do anything. Spend all your starting gold on a ?Magic mapping and oil to throw. You can kite enemies through walls. I often took the level 1 easy quest and hoped for something killable. Id instantly get to level 6 or 7.

Posessors have a VERY high death rate at level 1/no-body, but once you get them started and grind for consumables, they advance okay. I imagine endgame is as powerful as the easy races.

Edit: Scrawny cat is the only townie worth considering killing. 1 charge MM for lots of stealth, a weak attack, a few more HPs. Dont wear armor at first, you want to be able to deincarnate and run to survive.