NPP thoughts

[Derakon]

I downloaded the source for NPPAngband, did 'make -f Makefile.osx', and rolled up a dwarf warrior. Here's my thoughts so far:

* I asked for a quest right off and got 10 Lost Souls at 50'. Now, it's not like they pose any significant threat to me (Wisdom? Who needs that?), but blindly stumbling around trying to kill 10 invisible monsters is a bit of a pain...
* I'm used to being able to just hit enter to confirm buying/selling items (e.g. "dm<enter>" to sell the item in slot m), so requiring me to actually hit 'y' is jarring.
* Likewise, it'd be nice if <escape> were accepted as an analog for "no"
* I like the "automatically inscribe all X with this inscription" prompt after you inscribe something.
* On the flipside, the message explaining the 's' option when destroying objects is a bit awkward.
* Prompting for pickup selection when there's only one item on the floor is pointless, especially since I have "prompt before picking things up" turned off.
* Likewise, informing me that there are no items left on the floor doesn't seem necessary.
* Not all accents display correctly. For example, the Dunedain on the birth screen
* I got a quest for lemures, and after fulfilling the quest conditions, there were still more lemures left to kill. Intended?
* It seems a bit odd that elvish walls don't light themselves up.
* I encountered a random flickering granite wall (savefile available if desired)
* I like how monsters flee past other monsters when frightened.
* A Scroll of Recharging added only 2 charges to a Staff of Perception. Intended? Also, Staves of Perception seem to be a bad deal currently -- they cost more per-charge than scrolls of Identify do.
* While looking doesn't extend out of line of sight, if you switch to targeting mode, you can still look around at things your character can't actually see.
* Object detection (and other detections?) appears to detect every object that fits onto the window; thus, expanding your main window increases the power of these spells.
* I like that monsters automatically drop all their items in a stack instead of spilling them all over the dungeon.
* When I destroyed an un-ID'd Ring of Searching, it auto-ID'd in the process. Intended?
* I find it interesting that my character automatically knows the flavors of items he sees in stores. At least, I'm assuming that's why I haven't had to ID various flavored items...

Okay, I think that's more than enough for now. So far, so good...

[ewert]

* I asked for a quest right off and got 10 Lost Souls at 50'. Now, it's not like they pose any significant threat to me (Wisdom? Who needs that?), but blindly stumbling around trying to kill 10 invisible monsters is a bit of a pain...

God I hated 50' quests when I played NPP. Should really be hardcoded to start at 100', not 50'...

* I like the "automatically inscribe all X with this inscription" prompt after you inscribe something.

This is definitely something that Vanilla should steal ASAP.

* Object detection (and other detections?) appears to detect every object that fits onto the window; thus, expanding your main window increases the power of these spells.

Old game mechanics, hehe, I used to switch to smallest font and enlarge window so could detect whole level with 1 spell/scrolls.

[nppangband]

I downloaded the source for NPPAngband, did 'make -f Makefile.osx', and rolled up a dwarf warrior. Here's my thoughts so far:

* I asked for a quest right off and got 10 Lost Souls at 50'. Now, it's not like they pose any significant threat to me (Wisdom? Who needs that?), but blindly stumbling around trying to kill 10 invisible monsters is a bit of a pain...

I liked the suggestion to move the first quest to 100'. Snice most people just quit and re-roll a new character if they get a bad quest at 50'.

* I'm used to being able to just hit enter to confirm buying/selling items (e.g. "dm<enter>" to sell the item in slot m), so requiring me to actually hit 'y' is jarring.
* Likewise, it'd be nice if <escape> were accepted as an analog for "no"

http://forum.nppangband.org/viewtopic.php?id=981

The store interface is universally hated and I am working to fix it right now. I should have a better version out in a couple days in beta-3.

* Prompting for pickup selection when there's only one item on the floor is pointless, especially since I have "prompt before picking things up" turned off.
* Likewise, informing me that there are no items left on the floor doesn't seem necessary.

I wrote a completely new object pickup system,a nd I am still working out the quirks.

* Not all accents display correctly. For example, the Dunedain on the birth screen

It all worked fine, but now I am noticing some are broken again (Diego's last name on the spash screen as well). I will look into this.

* I got a quest for lemures, and after fulfilling the quest conditions, there were still more lemures left to kill. Intended?

This can happen with quests for group monsters. It seems rather harmless, so I haven't done anything about it.

* It seems a bit odd that elvish walls don't light themselves up.

They should. This must be a bug.

* I encountered a random flickering granite wall (savefile available if desired)

Yes, please send me the savefile. That shouldn't happen.

* A Scroll of Recharging added only 2 charges to a Staff of Perception. Intended? Also, Staves of Perception seem to be a bad deal currently -- they cost more per-charge than scrolls of Identify do.

Good point. I will check it out.

* Object detection (and other detections?) appears to detect every object that fits onto the window; thus, expanding your main window increases the power of these spells.

The Angband limited detection range is the next thing on my to-do list.

* When I destroyed an un-ID'd Ring of Searching, it auto-ID'd in the process. Intended?

No, but I think I already fixed this for Beta-3. If not, I will.

* I find it interesting that my character automatically knows the flavors of items he sees in stores. At least, I'm assuming that's why I haven't had to ID various flavored items...

Yes, that's intentional. That's my attempt to reduce ID tedium.

Thanks for the feedback & observations. I am glad you are enjoying it.

[Derakon]

Okay, I've put the save for the flickering wall issue up here. And it's good to hear that some of my gripes are known and fixed or to-be fixed.

More thoughts!

* You should probably not be given quests for treasure pits. Just sayin'. I got two artifact cloaks and three ego-items off that one, plus newfound vitality from the guild and 18351 AU from all the treasure drops.
* Lotho Pimple's drop seems overly generous; I got three items from him, one excellent. His small arrows don't seem to do any damage, though it could be I was just regenerating too quickly to notice them.
* Typo in the terrain docs: "In all instances below, creatures whoare actively flying..."
* The terrain docs talk about dying instantly in certain terrains, which sounds a bit harsh. I'm assuming that they merely do heavy elemental damage...
* It seems a bit wrong that creeping diamond gems are more dangerous (thanks to their ludicrously high AC) than creeping adamantite coins are. On that note, using a Staff of Sleep Monster to purposefully wake up the entire treasure pit was perhaps not the smartest thing I've ever done...stupid fast poisonous monsters with too much AC. I'll grant this is going back on my previous point earlier, but on the flipside this was looking like another hilariously lucrative quest until I woke everything up.
* I like the fact that pits can have multiple entrances. Really reduces the "stand at the entrance and hold attack" problem.
* Destruction seems to show up quite early -- I found both a staff and a scroll by 1050'.
* You have a distinct TMJ problem compared to Vanilla. The number of junk ego items I'm carrying back is moderately insane, and as noted I'm only at 1050'. I'm going to start squelching all but artifacts pretty soon at this rate.
* Personally, I don't like how the monster memory immediately latches onto a new monster in LOS as soon as you kill the previous monster. I like being able to look at the memory of the monster I just killed.
* ...you appear to have significantly upped the chances of vaults appearing. Okay. Wow. I haven't seen a Curlicues vault in ages. The ranged traps make vaults considerably nastier, too.
* Chests may be a bit too good as it stands. Even small chests generate lots of items, and the items tend to be high-quality. Particularly, I just opened a Chest of Stat Potions. And later found a chest with two Potions of Life. Hello.
* Incredibly minor: standing on two rings of resist cold, I squelched the first, and then the second was still visible.
* Hm, your object generation algorithm is cruel. Two rings of speed, both cursed. Why?
* The "newfound vitality" reward doesn't get displayed when I receive it at the guild. I have to look in the message history to see it.

All in all, this is pleasantly reminding me of the Zangband days. It could use a bit less Monty Haul (or else some nastier monsters) but otherwise I'm getting a nice high-power vibe from it.

[Derakon]

Okay, bug: if you try to swap in a piece of gear from the ground when your inventory is full, you get the message "You are unable to take off X", where X in the item currently occupying the slot. Then the item you tried to equip is equipped, and the original item vanishes entirely, as if it were destroyed (haven't tried on an artifact though).

* A service to buy WoR scrolls would be nice.
* Disturbance seems to be weird with respect to telepathy -- I'm getting disturbed when ghosts move around even though I have "disturb whenever any visible monster moves" turned off. What's going on here? This is unfortunately quite annoying when I'm trying to dig into a vault...or rest...
* Using the recharge-item service at the magic store on my staff of speed with 1 charge caused it to become un-ID'd, but using it on my staff of destruction with 0 charges did not.
* Walls covered with vines seem to be very difficult to dig through, even compared to granite.
* Eol's description has a bug: "This creature, and is native to forests, and moves very quickly." Probably has something to do with the terrain nativity.
* I was fighting a Dreadmaster standing in a wall while his buddy the Ghost was standing next to him in an open tile, and the health bar kept showing the Ghost's health instead...I think.
* Time traps? That's just mean. Especially when they're standing way down a corridor...
* Chests that are destroyed by explosive devices are not auto-squelched.
* Cursed ammo wielded to the quiver can be destroyed.

[Philip]

Okay, bug: if you try to swap in a piece of gear from the ground when your inventory is full, you get the message "You are unable to take off X", where X in the item currently occupying the slot. Then the item you tried to equip is equipped, and the original item vanishes entirely, as if it were destroyed (haven't tried on an artifact though).

* A service to buy WoR scrolls would be nice.
* I was fighting a Dreadmaster standing in a wall while his buddy the Ghost was standing next to him in an open tile, and the health bar kept showing the Ghost's health instead...I think.

On the first point, I can verify it. I think of it as a funny feature.
Second point I think is good.
Third I am assuming that the Ghost hit you last, and that you are assumed to be in combat with it. At least I think so.

[nppangband]

Okay, bug: if you try to swap in a piece of gear from the ground when your inventory is full, you get the message "You are unable to take off X", where X in the item currently occupying the slot. Then the item you tried to equip is equipped, and the original item vanishes entirely, as if it were destroyed (haven't tried on an artifact though).

This bug was reported, and has been fixed for Beta-3. I will work on those other issues & suggestions. Although WOR scrolls should almost always be in stock.

I am trying to get Beta-3 out as soon as possible. It is almost ready but my progress has been a little slow these last couple weeks.

As for the time traps, There are also gravity traps and inertia traps as well, but they all shimmer so they are easy to spot. As a heads up, if you think that is mean, beware of a unique called Azathoth. I think he kills more high level adventurers below 3000' in the NPP dungeon than all monsters combined. {edit - with the high level hydras coming in a close second place - those are basically the enforcers of the deep dungeon, and make it hard to survive down there if you aren't ready for a tough fight.}

[Nick]

beware of a unique called Azathoth. I think he kills more high level adventurers below 3000' in the NPP dungeon than all monsters combined

Yes, indeed.

[nppangband]

I downloaded the source for NPPAngband, did 'make -f Makefile.osx', and rolled up a dwarf warrior. Here's my thoughts so far:

* Not all accents display correctly. For example, the Dunedain on the birth screen

On my screen, Dunedain displays right (in Windows). Did you compile yoursels, and if so, what operating system are you using?

[/QUOTE]

[Derakon]

I did compile myself, using the OSX makefile...and shockingly enough, the OSX operating system too.

Anyway, that character's dead. I got reeaaallly sloppy when an ancient chromatic dragon was in LOS, letting him breathe three times. It just so happens that the first two dealt just enough damage for the third, which was unresisted poison, to put me at -17 HP. Mind, if I hadn't just previously found Aule and swapped it in for Gurthang (which gives poison resistance), I would have survived that just fine. Or if I'd spent less time dicking around with the on-fire door he created with a fire breath. Shows what I get for considering the monster to not be a threat. I had over 1000HP and wasn't even level 40 yet; playing as a dwarf warrior with maxed CON, I wonder how much of that was due to the vitality quest bonuses?

Incidentally, making Kavlax a hydra with your new pan-elemental hydra system is genius.

[nppangband]

* Using the recharge-item service at the magic store on my staff of speed with 1 charge caused it to become un-ID'd, but using it on my staff of destruction with 0 charges did not.

In the scenario above, the staff of speed was not *identified*, but the the staff of destruction was *identified*.

* A Scroll of Recharging added only 2 charges to a Staff of Perception. Intended?

I just re-did recharging so the re-charges are is proportional to the initial amount of charges a wand/staff gets.

* Lotho Pimple's drop seems overly generous; I got three items from him, one excellent.

I changed the drop from 2d2 to 1d2.

[Derakon]

Ah, makes sense on the *ID* thing, though it's not intuitively obvious what happens. Maybe *ID*'d items could be bolded or something.

* I'm running a paladin now, and pseudo-ID is painfully slow. We're talking "pick up eight items, then rest for more than 500 turns before any of them pseudo" here. Couple that with the large amounts of loot dropped and the lack of an early ID spell and paladins (and presumably priests) have a terrible time sorting through the results of pits and the like. Either fewer items or faster pseudo, please. (EDIT: I took a look at p_class.txt. Paladin pseudo is more than ten times worse than that of warriors, which is odd, because priests are only 25% worse than warriors. Bug? Easily fixed, at any rate.)
* Got a quest for power drakes. Those things are nasty. Quests for pits are comparatively straightforward, since there are limits on the monsters that can appear in pits; they tend to be a manageable challenge, if not straightforward (c.f. troll pits). Quests for themed levels tend to just be slogs, though my warrior had a hairy one where he took on every orc unique in the game in rapid succession, well before he was supposed to see them.
* I'd not realized how heavily I relied on automatic damage/blows display in Vanilla until I saw how much I was missing it in NPP. An indication of damage-per-blow vs. applicable target types would be wonderful. The notes on required stat improvements to get more blows would also be nice.
* After hitting '{' to inscribe something and then selecting the item, I have to clear the "inscribing an X" message twice before it will actually let me inscribe the item. Also, objects inscribed with !* don't prompt before re-inscribing them, though I don't mind that.
* Hitting/killing monsters that are standing in dark spots by using Sunbeam doesn't reveal what they are before they react (e.g. "it squelches" as a nexus vortex is revealed).
* An option to put all status information vertically on the left side would be nice. Since I play with such huge windows, I don't notice the status bar at the bottom very easily, but I look at my HP tally often, and thus it's easy for me to see status information placed near there. Heck, I'd like this for Vanilla too. Main reason for this: I often don't notice that my character is hungry until he's gotten weak from hunger... (seems like a rewrite of update_statusline() should suffice for this).

EDIT 2: Hm, problem! Having closed the program so I could edit p_class.txt, on reopening I cannot open my savefile! The program does not consider it to be valid -- it's greyed out in the "open file" dialog. So...so much for that! I assume you don't have this problem on other platforms, so it probably has something to do with the custom build. I wonder what...

[nppangband]

* I'd not realized how heavily I relied on automatic damage/blows display in Vanilla until I saw how much I was missing it in NPP. An indication of damage-per-blow vs. applicable target types would be wonderful. The notes on required stat improvements to get more blows would also be nice.

This is on the list for me to add.

* After hitting '{' to inscribe something and then selecting the item, I have to clear the "inscribing an X" message twice before it will actually let me inscribe the item. Also, objects inscribed with !* don't prompt before re-inscribing them, though I don't mind that.

This was reported and fixed for Beta-3.

EDIT 2: Hm, problem! Having closed the program so I could edit p_class.txt, on reopening I cannot open my savefile! The program does not consider it to be valid -- it's greyed out in the "open file" dialog. So...so much for that! I assume you don't have this problem on other platforms, so it probably has something to do with the custom build. I wonder what...

This one I am extremely concerned about. Nobody has reported any corrupted savefiles in Beta-2, evenwith a Mac build. But still, I want to be sure. Can you please send me the corrupted savefile? At least that way I can determine if it is a custom build or if there is something inconsistent with load.c or save.c. Thanks.


Oh. Remember that flickering wall savefile you sent me? There was a creature on the other side of the wall with the has-light flag and no path to the player. So we was walking back and forth on the other side of the wall trying to get to you. With the view special lighting option on, he was lighting up the wall from the other side.

[Derakon]

Ha! Yeah, that'd explain the flicker.

I've put the savefile online here. I hope you can figure out what's wrong with it.

[nppangband]

Ha! Yeah, that'd explain the flicker.

I've put the savefile online here. I hope you can figure out what's wrong with it.

I have some good news. The issue isn't with the savefile. I can open it with no problem. I open up to a level 34 paladin at 2050' in a corridor near a vault. There must something wrong with the Mac build.