Sangband 1.0.1's new thread

[Magnate]

It is not about pickup, but about teleport. Let character swim to the edge of water pool, or kill him instantly (or maybe just damage over time) by drowing.

How can it not be about pickup? Your original post said that you couldn't swim *when already in water*. So if you could get into the water in the first place, only two things can have happened: you picked up more weight, or you lost STR. I assumed the former (and ignored edge cases like falling into water from a trap door).

[LostTemplar]

Well, simple "tengu commands you to return" and you are in water pool.

[Magnate]

Well, simple "tengu commands you to return" and you are in water pool.

Ooh yes, I hadn't thought of that - sorry. Yes, that's *very* painful. But perhaps it's WAD? But if so I'm inclined to agree with you: encumbrance is a big enough problem as it is (especially for the early game for most races), without a mechanic that means you really ought to go round at less than 50% of your weight limit (rather than the usual 60% where the -1 speed kicks in).

Perhaps the solution is to prevent TELE_TO landing you in water? Presumably it already prevents you landing in lava ...

[LostTemplar]

Perhaps the solution is to prevent TELE_TO landing you in water?

This is a "make game easy" kind of solution, so I dont like it. As I think about situation again, only thing that annoys me here is "You dare not cross carrying so much weight." message, just change it to something like "You cannot swim carrying so much weight." and it will be good. Adding some kind of drowing effect will be good too.

One more issue, concerning SAngband ladder : dead characters are not displayed as dead until "flag this character as dead" option is used.

[Magnate]

This is a "make game easy" kind of solution, so I dont like it. As I think about situation again, only thing that annoys me here is "You dare not cross carrying so much weight." message, just change it to something like "You cannot swim carrying so much weight." and it will be good. Adding some kind of drowing effect will be good too.

To be really clever, you could give a different message if you are in the water compared with if you're at its edge.

[Nick]

Ooh yes, I hadn't thought of that - sorry. Yes, that's *very* painful. But perhaps it's WAD? But if so I'm inclined to agree with you: encumbrance is a big enough problem as it is (especially for the early game for most races), without a mechanic that means you really ought to go round at less than 50% of your weight limit (rather than the usual 60% where the -1 speed kicks in).

Perhaps the solution is to prevent TELE_TO landing you in water? Presumably it already prevents you landing in lava ...

FA triples your slowing penalty in water - something like that might be a possibility. Or a swimming skill

[camlost]

It's no different than ?PD into water. I usually throw the heavy stuff toward the water's edge and then walk back.

Water is one of the hard stops in the game though. I'm somewhat glad for it in some ways. Just taking a few points of damage wouldn't dissuade people from going in. The message could be improved, though. For those stuck in the water, drowning would be fine, though.

http://code.google.com/p/skills-angband/issues/detail?id=107

[Bostock]

Yup, half-trolls make for crappy ironmen, for just this reason. :-)

Half-orcs are still plenty tough, without the incredibly bad early detection.

A suicide command would be great, by the way!

Some ironman tips:

- Be prepared for frustration if you play a non-mage magic-user: you'll probably lose all copies of at least one pile of town books. :-(( I doubt there are enough fireproof books to matter (I was ironmanning before they were added), and although you get more books now than in the past due to book drops now being targetted to your school, there are probably still not enough books to last the journey. Resistance/immunity doesn't save you. Town-book drops peter out at a fairly shallow point, especially book one. Mages are the exception: they can convert boulders (yes, boulders) to blankets of elemental protection by spamming Chaos Cloud at them. Necromancers might be able to use wall-walking to save themselves, but I could never get a necromancer far enough to see. Burglars might be able to steal their way to enough copies, I never had much luck with it, but I didn't try very hard. Depending on how book drop type is determined, trashing your luck might make the generation be based on a shallow enough level to get town book drops, but I was always too chicken to experiment here.

- It may be best to not wear-ID early rings, due to Teleportation.

- If you toggle on all the various info in section (4) of the options, one of the info pieces tells you flat out when you're aggravating, nice when you're not sure if you just wear-ID'd Aggravation.

- Don't worry about food or light; after the first few levels, you'll have plenty enough.

- Fear pink.

- Don't do what I did - don't clear every level, or you may abandon the game out of boredom, as I did. The early levels are an exception, especially if you use magic - every book counts (see above).

- Buy at least one CLW and Phase Door, to get them ID'd.

[camlost]

Half-orcs are still plenty tough, without the incredibly bad early detection.

A suicide command would be great, by the way!

I agree; HO seem like a great ironman choice to me. SVN now has suicide for ironman characters.

[LostTemplar]

Orcs fear pink, while trolls do not. SAngband seems to be overall designed for non ironman play with quests, and max. dlvl for books, available in stores. Detection is not the worst problem now.

[Bostock]

I got three characters to the mid-levels in Ironman when I was doing it; all of them stopped due to boredom, not to unsurmountable barriers (though I did abandon a mage before that who lost his books, I guess that counts). I always thought of Sangband as relatively iron-friendly because I found food and light more plentiful than I assumed they were in V (with which I lack real experience though!), but I guess I was wrong.

I know one was a DE mage and another was a HO magicless burglar or assassin. I am not sure if the third was a HT or not. (Probably so - I'm pretty sure it was OoI, I found giants too trendy to be cool, and Dwarves have the same stealth problem but without the raging powah to help deal with said problem.) Fearing pink was a problem for the HO, but really, Ironman characters face so many problems, what's one more? So I don't think it's such a big deal - and for that one HO who made it deep, it wasn't.

I don't think quests should be overstressed in evaluating S's character; they're a great part of the game, but questless or low-quest play, Ironman or not, is a lot of fun too and is definitely an important side to the game.

I agree about the books though. Unfortunately, camlost's policy is not to deliberately make things easier for challenge games, and even though I reaaally would like a little easing up on the Ironman book situation, I also think camlost has a hard enough time as maintainer without the player community challenging his policies, so I don't want to push it on this one.

[other]

Several Bugs (or possibly just quirks) I've found in SAngband (1.0.1.169, windows version, the pre-compiled download):

- When using either graphical tile set and "hilight player with cursor", the player graphic remains on-screen in stores, sometimes obscuring important information such as price, weight, quantity available, or specific plusses depending on where on the screen the store entrance is

- treasure veins do not disturb a run. deeper in the dungeon this may be a good thing, but on the first few levels, I like to dig out the obvious veins to get a bit more cash for consumables and upgrades; perhaps this should be an option?

- in some circumstances, spending XP will actually LOWER your max-HP. I have no issue with it going up more slowly for "mage"-type characters, but I don't think it is quite right that learning something can make you easier to kill!

- any weapon that is "to heavy to use" also makes tunnelling impossible. This makes picks useless for many starting non-melee characters, and could concievably make even a shovel useless for a very weak character or one who has been strength-drained. Perhaps double the allowed weight for the purposes of the tunnelling penalty?

- the character sheet has no information on your defenses (except dodging under skills) -- I think that the second page (which duplicates a lot of information from the first page) could use a section on Base AC, Magical AC, and maybe Total Armor Weight & dodge percentage

- I think I have found a couple of disconnected dungeon levels, but since I was too low in level to have detect doors yet, this may just have been secret doors that took more perception than I had. I do know that it was in two pieces, since one side had a teleport trap that dumped me over on the other side ... I eventualy tunneled out a Magma streamer to link the two sides

- I've been playing roguelikes since about UMoria 4.8, and this is the first one I've played that had slowing start at 50% ... from other discussion here I gather that this is an intentional change, but I am wondering why? And did 100% at a given strength double at the same time?

[camlost]

I agree about the books though. Unfortunately, camlost's policy is not to deliberately make things easier for challenge games, and even though I reaaally would like a little easing up on the Ironman book situation, I also think camlost has a hard enough time as maintainer without the player community challenging his policies, so I don't want to push it on this one.

Ironman is a special kind of challenge game, that should be reasonably well supported. I'll look at the book distributions at some point.

I've been playing roguelikes since about UMoria 4.8, and this is the first one I've played that had slowing start at 50% ... from other discussion here I gather that this is an intentional change, but I am wondering why? And did 100% at a given strength double at the same time?

You can't cross water at 50%, 60% is first speed drop. I'm not sure if there is a change in weight limits, but at least a lot of weapons are lighter in S than V (or were at some point).

- treasure veins do not disturb a run. deeper in the dungeon this may be a good thing, but on the first few levels, I like to dig out the obvious veins to get a bit more cash for consumables and upgrades; perhaps this should be an option?

I guess I don't tunnel for cash hardly ever; is this a common request?


I'll look into the rest.

[UniqueName]

I guess I don't tunnel for cash hardly ever; is this a common request?

Yes, I was digging in comp due to lack of money. Well wanding really...

[UniqueName]

One more thing...with no sell on you can and I guess should still sell stuff for investment. Also this might be fixed by the buy all change in 169 but in 129 if you did buy all your investment counter would go crazy. Like into the millions for all shops.