[announce] Sangband 1.0.1 released

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  • Mikko Lehtinen
    Veteran
    • Sep 2010
    • 1246

    Originally posted by camlost
    Does that mean that the restarting a character bug is gone?
    Yeah!

    Comment

    • Mikko Lehtinen
      Veteran
      • Sep 2010
      • 1246

      Originally posted by Mikko Lehtinen
      If you are honour-bound while holding a holy weapon, the weapon gets some extra abilities. And if you attack a fleeing opponent with a Holy weapon, you call the wrath of God on you...
      If you don't like the talent, you could implement this as an ego item. Or as a curse on an ego item.

      Comment

      • Mikko Lehtinen
        Veteran
        • Sep 2010
        • 1246

        Originally posted by camlost
        Also as a possibility is being more generous with mana and/or failure rate to low stat casters. That's the primary reason I have trouble with low-spellcasting-stat races. It's just so hard to have a reasonable amount of mana to use it effectively. That would help broaden the race/magic combos and alleviate the problem in a different way.
        I like this.

        Comment

        • Mikko Lehtinen
          Veteran
          • Sep 2010
          • 1246

          Unarmed combat skills are far too cheap at the moment. At the moment all races except dark elves have the cheaper martial arts skill at 10 or less, often at 8 or even less. In comparison, three races have the cheapest melee weapon skill at 11 or 12.

          This is even more problematic because there's not much replayability in martial arts. Angband has tons of ego and artifact weapons, and martial artists are missing most of the fun.

          Most characters should use melee weapons. Karatekas and wrestlers should be a minority.

          I'd like to make throwing a bit cheaper, too. Perhaps lower the price for elves and dark elves by one. Just look at all the work Leon has done to make throwing interesting: you can throw axes, mushrooms, potions, vials of essence, even necromancer spellbooks! This skill has tons of replayability.

          Comment

          • Bostock
            Swordsman
            • Aug 2007
            • 335

            I feel a bit spammy/thread-dominating, I hope I'm not bothering people...

            Mikko - now I see your point, and I agree with you.

            Originally posted by camlost
            I have plans to add Ents, at the very least. I have no idea which weapon skills they'd be good with (though there's probably a racial anti-preference for polearms). I would guess that martial arts is also their thing.
            While you're at it, you could create a more elegant paradigm for shapechanging into what is completely (Ents) or somewhat (Half-Trolls) your own race (currently Half-Trolls get full benefit for trollform). :-)

            Perhaps elves should be less good with karate?
            If unarmed Ents join the roster, sword-happy, unarmed-poor Elves would certainly make a better complement. I think they'd be more canon too.

            Or perhaps weapon penalties should extend to martial arts?
            I don't think that penalizing them fits the priestly-weapons trope too much... but I guess I can see it.

            Or perhaps it's truly time to upgrade blunt weapons to be as good as sharp weapons and remove the priestly penalties. It's not like there are ancilliary benefits to priests over mages anymore (better hp, combat abilities, etc.).
            Oh! I didn't know that! In that case sure, why not?

            Don't forget, however, that sharp weapons have one little-discussed penalty: monsters resistant to them come far earlier than other weapon-resistant monsters.

            I have to ask before I axe a race -- Gnomes aren't exactly true to the source, and dark-elves fill a fairly similar niche. Are gnomes necessary?
            Sex is necessary. Gnomes aren't necessary. It would be nice to have someone replace them as the device kings, though.

            (It would be nice to hear a comment -- even a "no" -- on my townspeople thoughts from a while back... I really don't think run-stopping, ranged-aggroavable, melee-unaggroavable townspeople add to the game.)
            So you ride yourselves over the fields and you make all your animal deals and your wise men don't know how it feels to be thick as a brick.

            Comment

            • camlost
              Sangband 1.x Maintainer
              • Apr 2007
              • 523

              (It would be nice to hear a comment -- even a "no" -- on my townspeople thoughts from a while back... I really don't think run-stopping, ranged-aggroavable, melee-unaggroavable townspeople add to the game.)
              I'm not quite sure what Leon wanted with them. Making them non-disturbing certainly makes sense. Removing the drops is the most sensical solution to the ones that players might attack for money.

              Unarmed combat skills are far too cheap at the moment. At the moment all races except dark elves have the cheaper martial arts skill at 10 or less, often at 8 or even less. In comparison, three races have the cheapest melee weapon skill at 11 or 12.
              Unarmed is a 10 cost skill at base, and weapons are 12 cost base. Perhaps they should even out a little bit, as I've tried to make them competitive with each other.

              I guess part of the problem is that it's hard to say which races should be good with martial arts; there's a shortage of material from which to derive the answer.
              a chunk of Bronze {These look tastier than they are. !E}
              3 blank Parchments (Vellum) {No french novels please.}

              Comment

              • Bostock
                Swordsman
                • Aug 2007
                • 335

                Originally posted by Mikko Lehtinen
                Unarmed combat skills are [...] even more problematic because there's not much replayability in martial arts. Angband has tons of ego and artifact weapons, and martial artists are missing most of the fun.
                Alternatively, there could be new egos and artifact non-weapons that specifically aid martial arts. (Then there are exotic martial arts weapons like nunchucks, but I doubt camlost would want those in the game any more than swordchucks, and me, I'm indifferent.)

                Most characters should use melee weapons. Karatekas and wrestlers should be a minority.
                Well, a 2/6ths minority.
                So you ride yourselves over the fields and you make all your animal deals and your wise men don't know how it feels to be thick as a brick.

                Comment

                • Mikko Lehtinen
                  Veteran
                  • Sep 2010
                  • 1246

                  Originally posted by Bostock
                  If unarmed Ents join the roster, sword-happy, unarmed-poor Elves would certainly make a better complement. I think they'd be more canon too.
                  Yes, but don't overdo it!

                  I do like elven karatekas, it's just that I want them to be able to swing swords too. I think karate 9, swordmanship 10 would be the way to go. (While systematically increasing most of the other races' unarmed skill costs.)

                  Elven karatekas play very differently from all those giant monster wrestlers. Elves are very frail, and have to rely on stealth and dexterity-based combat skills like karate, dodging and archery. It's really an unique playing experience. Combine this with Nature magic, and you start to get images of mystical Chinese warrior monks.

                  Besides, karate is what separates elves from dark elves. Dark elves are supposed to be better swordsmen, weaponsmiths and offensive magic-wielders; elves are quicker and better at karate, bow, and dodging.

                  Comment

                  • Mikko Lehtinen
                    Veteran
                    • Sep 2010
                    • 1246

                    Originally posted by camlost
                    Unarmed is a 10 cost skill at base, and weapons are 12 cost base. Perhaps they should even out a little bit, as I've tried to make them competitive with each other.
                    Probably yes.

                    I would also like to see more efficient cross-training between weapon skills. Taking all three melee weapon skills costs now about 2,4 skills. The total cost should perhaps be closer to 2,0 skills or even a bit cheaper, if you make weaponcrafting cheaper or more efficient. (Cross-training strategy competes with weaponcrafting.)

                    The first weapon skill that the player develops is probably the most efficient one for the race. At the moment it costs a bit too much to branch in other, less optimal weapon skills, just because you found that awesome weapon.

                    More efficient weapon cross-training would reduce tedium and the effect of luck on score. (If you happen find an awesome weapon and already have the skill to use it, you don't have to buy extra skills, and get better score.) It would also reduce the too-much-junk syndrome.

                    Originally posted by camlost
                    I guess part of the problem is that it's hard to say which races should be good with martial arts; there's a shortage of material from which to derive the answer.
                    As there are no canon answers, you can go with what plays well.

                    Regarding Ents: I vaguely recall that Ent-Wives were very different from Ents? If you don't want to bring them in play, you may want to make Ents male only.

                    Oangband has interesting Ents. They start small and fast, and end up slow and big. I don't know whether this would work in a skill-based variant.

                    Comment

                    • Bostock
                      Swordsman
                      • Aug 2007
                      • 335

                      Originally posted by Mikko Lehtinen
                      Probably yes.

                      I would also like to see more efficient cross-training between weapon skills. Taking all three melee weapon skills costs now about 2,4 skills. The total cost should perhaps be closer to 2,0 skills or even a bit cheaper
                      Considering that -- if I'm not mistaken -- power is based on skills' base cost rather than discounted cost, this would only solve part of the problem -- taking a second, let alone third weapon skill would still severely cramp endgame development of support skills. (I have the same problem, to a lesser degree, with Disarming under the 100% Power limit.)

                      A heretical thought: perhaps power should be based on discounted skill cost?

                      Regarding townspeople: not stopping running (except for hostiles) and eliminating drops sounds fine. Perhaps hostiles could still have drops - you kind of have to kill them anyway, so you wouldn't be hunting them just for the drop.
                      So you ride yourselves over the fields and you make all your animal deals and your wise men don't know how it feels to be thick as a brick.

                      Comment

                      • Mikko Lehtinen
                        Veteran
                        • Sep 2010
                        • 1246

                        Originally posted by Bostock
                        Considering that -- if I'm not mistaken -- power is based on skills' base cost rather than discounted cost, this would only solve part of the problem -- taking a second, let alone third weapon skill would still severely cramp endgame development of support skills. (I have the same problem, to a lesser degree, with Disarming under the 100% Power limit.)

                        A heretical thought: perhaps power should be based on discounted skill cost?
                        Actually it is! Leon changed this in one of his final versions, based on my suggestions.

                        Comment

                        • Mikko Lehtinen
                          Veteran
                          • Sep 2010
                          • 1246

                          "Changes - major gameplay: - The whole concept of linked skills, such as Burglary and Disarming or Swordsmanship and Jousting, has been rethought. Now, such skills are treated as linked pairs. For each pair, it is 1) cheaper to advance the paired skill if lower (either one), and 2) overall character power and score penalty does not increase as much when both are advanced. The most important gameplay effect of all this is that weapon-users and burglars will find it easier to get good scores. Some new pairings created, including one between Weaponsmithing and Bowmaking."

                          Comment

                          • Bostock
                            Swordsman
                            • Aug 2007
                            • 335

                            Cool!

                            One odd game behavior that may be a bug and may be a feature: certain very powerful scrolls leave behind Alchemy materials (Silk, etc.) even if you don't have the skill. The two examples I know are Invoke Nexus and Curse Armor.
                            So you ride yourselves over the fields and you make all your animal deals and your wise men don't know how it feels to be thick as a brick.

                            Comment

                            • ekolis
                              Knight
                              • Apr 2007
                              • 921

                              Originally posted by Mikko Lehtinen
                              Probably yes.
                              Regarding Ents: I vaguely recall that Ent-Wives were very different from Ents? If you don't want to bring them in play, you may want to make Ents male only.

                              Oangband has interesting Ents. They start small and fast, and end up slow and big. I don't know whether this would work in a skill-based variant.
                              Why does the player need to choose a sex for his/her character anyway, if it has no effect in-game?

                              As for O ents, I didn't realize they started "small and fast"... I thought they were always big and slow! What, do they start as seedlings or something? Kind of reminds me of the Deku race from "The Legend of Zelda"... didn't one of the Deku scrubs say that he would be honored to become the next Great Deku Tree, at the part where the first tree died in "Ocarina of Time"?
                              You read the scroll labeled NOBIMUS UPSCOTI...
                              You are surrounded by a stasis field!
                              The tengu tries to teleport, but fails!

                              Comment

                              • Mikko Lehtinen
                                Veteran
                                • Sep 2010
                                • 1246

                                Originally posted by ekolis
                                As for O ents, I didn't realize they started "small and fast"... I thought they were always big and slow! What, do they start as seedlings or something? Kind of reminds me of the Deku race from "The Legend of Zelda"... didn't one of the Deku scrubs say that he would be honored to become the next Great Deku Tree, at the part where the first tree died in "Ocarina of Time"?
                                I had to check this. I remembered it somewhat wrong. Actually, Oangband Ents begin the game slow and strong, and end up being even more strong and slow.

                                "Clad in bark-like skin, and with bodies like the trunks of trees, Ents can nevertheless move about perfectly well. They have poor dungeon survival skills, and are bad at archery and with polearms, but handle other weapons well. As long as they stay away from fire, Ents will find themselves well capable of surviving many a bitter fight. As they age, Ents slowly lose the relative suppleness of their sapling youth, trading dexterity for increased strength and constitution. Members of this wise race can never gain feather fall by any means, but will slowly acquire the ability needed to tear rock apart with their
                                weaponless hands."

                                Comment

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