[announce] Sangband 1.0.1 released

[Susramanian]

Well, there's always removing the restriction and compiling the source yourself.

You did ask us what we wanted.

I like Magnate's difficulty level suggestion way more than any of my suggestions. Maybe make the easiest difficulty level have no limit on the number of skills you can raise, and that would satisfy all the folks that are cranky about the new restrictions.

Gaining new abilities at certain skill levels would also be very welcome. I've thought for a long time that Angband warriors were boringly implemented; they have nothing much to do except bump into monsters over and over again. Contrast this with the complex and detailed spell system that every other class enjoys. It's one of the best things about the new ToME, by the way; warriors have all sorts of beatings they can activate, just like everybody else.

If Leon hated squelching that much, I withdraw my suggestion for polluting his masterpiece with it. Instead, I'll just point out that the TMJ problem is still alive and in need of a clever solution.

I'm thrilled to hear that you're taking a look at identification. I look forward to seeing what you come up with. And thanks again for your hard work on Sangband. May it live long.

[Timo Pietilä]

I hate to ask you to go undo something, but here it goes: I'd like to have the 100 power restriction removed or made optional. I was so excited to see a new version of Sangband, and then I was completely dismayed when I saw this. It kept me from upgrading.

- Allow the player to reduce skills already learned

I would love that. Allow char to "change his mind" and learn another skill after already maxing out by reducing what is already learned.

[camlost]

I would love that. Allow char to "change his mind" and learn another skill after already maxing out by reducing what is already learned.

This looks like the most palatable suggestion to me that helps address the "calculation" problem. I'm still not inclined to alter the cap to limit to a "number' of skills. I prefer organic characters that use a variety of skills.

http://code.google.com/p/skills-angband/issues/detail?id=21

I've started a list of possible warrior talents. Any more thoughts?

http://code.google.com/p/skills-angband/issues/detail?id=22

[Bostock]

Regarding spell resistance: my feeling here is that there should be NO skills that "every character must take," because then it's an illusion of choice without a real choice, and clutter among the skills. I guess I'm pretty adamant about this, as far as one can be adamant without being the one doing the work. :-)

In this light, I can't agree with the "we shouldn't be making challenge games easier" argument, because I don't agree that EVERY skill-path without Spell Resistance should be a challenge game in the first place.

I agree that, if it's really important to keep mind blasting powers at their current strength (and I'm not adamant about that), there are two basic paths to take here - eliminating the skill, or providing alternatives. I like the latter better, since the skill is actually pretty interesting as long as it's one out of a set of choices. I like the suggestion of improving the spell resistance output of forging as an alternative to spell resistance. Maybe extremely high levels of wisdom (high enough to require sacrifices elsewhere) could do as well... though that might balance things to much towards druids and priests?

Regarding burglary practice: It's good to know about practice from stealing... sounds like it could use a place in the documentation, since all the other "practice" skills are killing skills, intuitively leading me to believe that I needed to kill with the skill to train it. (I don't steal much anyway... I don't really need money, and too-rarely IMO does it give something directly useful.)

(My experience with traps and swarms BTW is that a small chance of disarm/smash times a large count of monsters in the swarm = no more trap halfway through the swarm... but maybe it's a vicious circle of my putting off training -> skill getting relatively weaker -> putting off training even more, I don't know.)

Why did you stress that the threshold for the Guild is 20?

Regarding skills: I never said why I lauded the decision - my reason was that it makes the decision to raise the "candy" skills tougher and strengthens some of the cheaper but weaker skills. I never suspected it would be so controversial... looks like you're stuck with choosing between the developer's apparent vision and the player base's wishes. I'd lean towards the latter, but it's a tough call. What I wouldn't want to see is an endgame balanced for mandatory forging, for exactly the same reason I don't like the endgame balanced for mandatory spell resistance... maybe that helps illustrate my earlier point a bit!

I do like the idea of skill-forgettery e.g. via rare item, because without horrid kludges like a skill calculator, I can envision some real unfun scenarios with characters one imagined with 100% XYZ skill who get stuck at 99. It's not *just* about the power... there's a certain faux-but-important roleplaying element here too.

* * * * * *

On a completely different note: I finally got around to actually *playing* the new version instead of just talking about it. I've absolutely fallen in love with no-sell/more-cash. It seems like there's a bit less less cash all around, which I like. Extended ASCII is basically working on my Vista machine - hooray - but with a few kinks involving trap display, where there's a blank (black) glyph instead of a trap glyph. The bug doesn't appear consistently and I haven't pinpointed the repro, so I hesitated to mention it, but I figure you'd like to at least be aware of the problem.

[EpicMan]

What you want to avoid with skill forgetting is the ability to do it anytime we want, as many times as we want. That could lead to re-skilling for every/many fights (i.e. load up on spell resistance verses mage enemy, then move the skills elsewhere for a melee-fest.

Perhaps allow re-skilling every 10 levels (assuming Sangband has 50 levels and level progression is similar to Vanilla, I'm not a Sangband expert)? That way you can overcome bad mistakes but will have to live with your choices for a while.

Or maybe have it cost X gold to respec, with X doubling every time.

[Bostock]

Sangband doesn't really have levels, I mean, you have a power level, but it's pretty generic.

Limiting forgettery to town like forging could work. Ironman could lift the restriction (like it does for forging) or keep it, whatever.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

There's a second kind of display bug in Extended ASCII in Vista besides the traps. It's some weirdness for pillars, water, and potentially other terrain features. It's hard to describe in words so I've uploaded some pictures.

http://tinypic.com/r/1zlf0ya/7

http://tinypic.com/r/2s6ls29/7

Normally it's just ugly, not really a showstopper. The exception is large pillared rooms, where it can be difficult to tell where there's open space and where there's a pillar.

[Timo Pietilä]

Sangband doesn't really have levels, I mean, you have a power level, but it's pretty generic.

Limiting forgettery to town like forging could work. Ironman could lift the restriction (like it does for forging) or keep it, whatever.

If we limit forgetting only in already maxed situation, and make it cost simply losing a skill so that forgetting requires you actually gain skills like having them at first place, then it works.

Make it work like if we were always in one level short of max skills, and getting that last one always requires that you lose skill in some other area. Fluctuation at to top of the skills.

Not just "forget everything, keep the points, and just rearrange as you wish".

[camlost]

If we limit forgetting only in already maxed situation, and make it cost simply losing a skill so that forgetting requires you actually gain skills like having them at first place, then it works.

Make it work like if we were always in one level short of max skills, and getting that last one always requires that you lose skill in some other area. Fluctuation at to top of the skills.

Not just "forget everything, keep the points, and just rearrange as you wish".

I'm not planning on having skill reduction refund experience. If we restrict lowering skills to players at power 100, then we don't allow players to forget magic and choose another realm, or decide burglary and the heavy weapon penalty isn't for them. Are there compelling reasons to disallow skill reduction in these circumstances?

Perhaps I should add a cheating option for those who wish no cap to skills.

[Magnate]

I'm not planning on having skill reduction refund experience. If we restrict lowering skills to players at power 100, then we don't allow players to forget magic and choose another realm, or decide burglary and the heavy weapon penalty isn't for them. Are there compelling reasons to disallow skill reduction in these circumstances?

Perhaps I should add a cheating option for those who wish no cap to skills.

That's a good idea: cheat_skills removes the cap. I really don't like the "forgetting" / re-spec approach. It just feels totally wrong to me and would ruin the atmosphere - but of course I don't have to use it if it's implemented. I do think it's the only serious alternative to fixing the number of skills, and if you don't want to do that, forgetting may be the only solution to people's builds getting screwed by the cap. One other possibility would be a calculator in the skills screen: mark each skill you want to max, and have the game tell you the resulting power level, with a warning if you hit the 100 limit.

Some ideas for warrior skill effects or talents (I particularly like your Pin idea, btw):

hamstring (for natural creatures) / disarm (for weapon-wielders): monster attack skill (and/or physical damage) halved for rest of combat

fury: attacks increase in speed but slowed at end of combat (from Oangband)

parry: chance to deflect a successful physical attack (in addition to evasion chance from dodging skill)

riposte: a free blow at the end of a monster's unsuccessful attack

throat slash: monster cannot use breath weapon any more

I do think it's important that not all these are restricted to OoI characters: non-oath characters need some love too. Oangband provides us with a particularly good opportunity for a skill effect that relies on both high weapon skill and magic skill:

mana burn: damage drains monster mana (instead of physical damage - or at very high skill, as well as)

It would be good if there were other effects that required a combination of skills to trigger. Parry for example could require weapon skill and Dodging; hamstring / throat slash could require Nature Lore etc.

I also think it would be good if the three different weapon skills brought quite different effects. So high blunt skill does more maiming / stunning type effects, high swords maybe does more blows/damage type effects, and high polearm skill more parrying / disarming stuff.

You made a point about warriors supposedly benefiting from domain skills: these are supposed to provide semi-ESP at high levels for that type of monster (animals / demons / undead - I can't remember if Wizardry does anything). If this effect was beefed up, and maybe made less dependent on Perception, those skills would be more useful to warriors. Or does everybody always end up with ESP anyway?

I completely agree with Bostock that NO skill should be mandatory, so I'm very keen to help solve the Spell Resistance problem. Ideas include:

- increase stat bonuses to saving throws. Not just WIS, but perhaps allow a bonus from high CON for certain saves affecting the body rather than the mind, and/or from high DEX for some targeted effects which might be avoided.

- increase the occurrence of +save on ego items and randarts and forged items. This needs careful balancing lest it render the skill useless, but for example at the moment there's an ego type "of Magical Item Mastery" - if you added a similar one "of Spell Resistance", with a chunky x5 pval, that would offer characters a choice between using up an equipment slot (or two) instead of pumping the skill. Better to have high bonuses on items which have no other properties, rather than add +save to items people would want to wear anyway. Maybe create a standart amulet with an enormous (+10 x5) bonus or something ...

- allow saving throw bonuses from other skills in certain situations: domain skills could boost saves vs. animals / demons / undead, for example

- introduce consumables which temporarily boost saving throw - or add that effect to existing ones (heroism, PfE, etc.).

One other thing I forgot to mention was that one of my favourite things in Sangband is the existence of set items, which provide bonuses when you wear them together. Diablo II and Titan Quest stole this concept and developed it really well. I'd like to see more sets in S: in all the games I've ever played, I've only ever found one pair of artifacts which made a set (no, it wasn't Sting + The Phial). It makes weak standarts suddenly worth keeping if they can form part of a set (hey, I should implement this in V!).

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Druidic/Arcane/Necromantic/Holy Devices

Hello,

it feels good to see Sangband alive again!

I have a solution that would help with both of our problems: Magic Devices skill is too strong, and magical realm skills are too weak.

We could flag a number of wands, staves and rods as Druidic, Arcane, Necromantic or Holy items. Perhaps half of the devices would be bound to a realm. Using an item would require (let's say) 40 points in the relevant realm skill.

One possibility would be to have both Minor and Major devices in each realm, requiring perhaps 30 and 70 points in the relevant realm skill.

Mikko

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Hello,

here's my proposition in a bit more refined form.

My idea is to limit the late game power of the Magical Device skill somewhat, while increasing the importance of the magical realm skills. The wand blaster archetype would now need to invest in more skills, which is only fair.

You need to know the inner secrets of the relevant magical realm to use some of the most powerful magical devices.

You need at least 50 % in Wizardry to use these:
- Rod of Teleport Away (lvl 65) {but anyone can use the wand}
- Wand of Wizardry (lvl 80)
- Staff of Chaos (lvl 80)

You need at least 50 % in Piety to use these:
- Staff of Healing (lvl 70)
- Staff of Holiness (lvl 73)
- Rod of Restoration (lvl 75)
- Rod of Healing (lvl 78)

You need at least 50 % in Nature Lore to use these:
- Rod of Lightning Strike (lvl 73)
- Rod of Northwinds (lvl 78)
- Rod of Dragonfire (lvl 82)
- Rod of Glaurung's Blood (lvl 85)

You need at least 50 % in Blood Dominion to use these:
- Rod of Drain Life (lvl 65) {but anyone can use the wand}
- Wand of Doomblasts (lvl 75)
- Staff of Doomspells (lvl 85)
- Wand of Annihilation (lvl 90)

Mikko

[NotMorgoth]

I for one am not in favour of removing the 100 power cap.

In a game like this with non-persistent levels, you could keep on scumming the same levels forever, raising more and more skills, which just seems silly - a bit like if in Vanilla your level was not capped at 50 and you could keep levelling up forever.

For those players who like to learn a lot of skills - this is still possible; you really don't need to get every skill to 100%, and while some skills have important thresholds above 90% (eg spellcasting) there really isn't that much difference between say Magical Infusion at 90% and 100%.

Other thoughts:

Magical Devices

I agree somewhat with the people that think this skill is too universally useful as well as being very powerful for killing in the late game. My suggestion is to add another Oath/Guild (Guild of Artificers or something,) and only by joining this can you use devices, particularly the deadly late game ones, at their full potential.

Alchemy

I notice that no-one else has mentioned this, maybe because very few players seem to use this skill; perhaps this in itself is an indication that it needs tweaking.

I have been experimenting with an alchemist recently (I will go back and finish that game at some point,) and my experience is that while the skill itself is OK, the problem is that it does nothing by itself as you also need Infusion to be able to find essences.

Maybe Alchemy by itself should also let you find essences, but then you would never be able to make more than 1 potion/scroll at a time, and obviously you would not be able to do the other things that Infusion allows like controlling forged items or recharging.

Weapon Restrictions

I'd really like to see an end to the silly restriction of priests and blunt weapons. Maybe in some games this is relevant for balance reasons as priests might be overpowered if they could use any weapon, but a Sangband priest would probably use martial arts anyway. This may require rebalancing of priests in general, and I'm not sure how the recent changes to weapon damage dice would affect it.

Weapon Abilities

If you're looking for more interesting things for warriors to do with weapons, here are a few ideas:

Lunge: usable with polearms, allows you to attack a monster that is 1 tile away. Some monsters with tentacles etc could also use this against the player.

Knockback: I know that some weapons (Impact I think) can knock the opponent back, but maybe it could also be a talent with blunt weapons. It could maybe also do more damage if the monster cannot be knocked back, eg if there is a wall in the way.

Mighty Blow: An extra powerful attack that does more damage for 1 turn, and has a greater chance of stunning the monster, but leaves you more vulnerable on the following turn.



I haven't actually played 1.01 yet, though I am looking forward to doing so, to test the rebalanced weapons etc; I've been distracted by Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, (hint: it's insanely hard,) but I'll be back to playing Sangband soon, as I'll want to play a game I can actually win.


EDIT: I should also add that I don't think it's a good idea to allow characters to reduce skills in order to gain others, at least not in a totally free and unlimited way; generally endgame characters have enough experience to spare that they could easily re-skill to face specific opponents, which would undermine the whole idea of choosing skills.

[camlost]

Sangband 1.0.1.129

Hopefully this release will clear up the major problems for a while so I can focus on more major enhancements for 1.0.2

Noteable changes from [1.0.1.107] to [1.0.1.129]
------------------------------------------

• Add option to allow raising skills beyond power cap
• Allow skill reduction. Experience will only refund if skill was raised while on skill screen.
• '|' key will now switch weapons when wielding two weapons instead of swapping karate/wrestling.
• Items will be pseudo
• identified when picked up in the dark, if you have infravision
• Dwarven armor added.
• Spell resistance skill less potent. All characters will receive some spell resistance.
• Utility magic devices made easier to use.
• Overmind spell now works.
• Wargear should be more easily and powerfully (pseudo)identified.
• No need to inscribe '=g' on quiver ammo anymore. Items quivered will return to the quiver until removed.

Sangband Home Page
Sangband 1.0.1.129 for Windows
Sangband source for 1.0.1.129

[Mikko Lehtinen]

[*] Utility magic devices made easier to use.

Hey Joshua,

I like this a lot! Elegant solution.

Now I have to test whether shadowstalking has become *too* easy. The game is less interesting if shadowstalkers can just keep their light off all the time. It's important to keep the tactical choice in the game.

Mikko

[Mikko Lehtinen]

Hello,

I suspect that Staff of Trap Location is accidentally missing easy_activate? All the other detection staves have that, and so does Rod of Trap Location.

Mikko