[announce] Sangband 1.0.1 released

[NotMorgoth]

Long post alert!

Actually I think there is quite an interesting balance between martial arts and weapons at the moment. Of course martial arts (especially wrestling) are in some ways 'better' due to lower costs combined with good damage, but that's not the whole story...

I find martial artists are often noticeably weaker than weapon users for a significant portion of the midgame, mostly because of the existence of ego weapons and mid level artifacts, which may do a lot of extra damage due to a brand, or give a useful resistance or power. This does of course mean that weapon users rely more on luck, as they need to find a good weapon.

In fact, many of my martial art using characters often end up wielding a weapon in the endgame, even if they have no intention of attacking with it, simply for its resistances or stat bonuses, and relying on spells, archery or magic devices for offence.

This may point to a more general game balance issue; the fact that characters don't mind losing their melee attack (after spending so many points on it) seems to indicate that melee is generally a bad option in the late game (possibly due to the high number of monsters with nasty effects like disenchantment, charge draining and stat draining, and the relative scarcity of resistance to those effects.)

So, if I was playing an elf druid/ranger, my decision on whether to train karate or swords would depend not only on the relative costs and aptitudes, but also on my overall intentions for the character; if I was intending to still be using melee as a primary source of damage in the late game, my decision would be weighted towards karate, while if I wanted an easier midgame, and to switch to mostly spells, archery or devices later on, I would be seriously considering swords even if the cost was worse.

This of course is assuming that karate is roughly equal with wrestling in overall power and usefulness (which in itself is another issue,) as I have more experience with wrestlers than karatekas.

[NotMorgoth]

Sorry for the double post, but as this is about a separate issue and my first post was already long enough, I thought it was better to split it into two..

The other issue being discussed is the various races and their abilities; first I'd like to say that I'm rather fond of gnomes and would be sad to see them go. However, as has been pointed out, they do occupy fairly similar territory as dark elves (though with the innate FA being an important ability and pretty significant difference for a large portion of the game.)

If you're still thinking about adding a race with good wis and clerical/druidic abilities that are tougher than elves, have you thought about the Druedain, also known as Woses.

Wikipedia describes them as:

Appearance

The appearance of the Drúedain is entirely different from the appearance of the other races of the Middle-earth legendarium. They are a bit like Dwarves in stature and endurance, stumpy, clumsy-limbed (with short, thick legs, and fat, "gnarled" arms), had broad chests, fat bellies, and heavy buttocks. According to the Elves and other Men, they had "unlovely faces": wide, flat, and expressionless with deep-set black eyes that glowed red when angered. They had "horny" brows, flat noses, wide mouths, and sparse, lank hair. They had no hair lower than the eyebrows, except for a few men who had a tail of black hair on the chin. They were short lived and had a deep hatred of Orcs. They were known to have certain magical powers and to be still in meditation for long periods of time.

Obviously they are actually human, but they seem to be different enough both physically and culturally from the other humans to warrant being counted as a different 'race'. Their description and appearance would tend to indicate that they are physically tough but not particularly agile, while their shamanistic woodland culture may point towards wisdom and familiarity with nature and/or religion.

And finally, on the subject of humans, I feel that they are probably the least interesting of the current races, possibly because of the feeling that 'for any type of character I want to play, some other race does it better.'

Maybe they need some kind of enhancement, but I'm not sure that a simple buffing of skills etc would be the right thing, so I've been trying to think of some other ideas that might work. Feel free to ignore these if they are either against the spirit of the game, or impossible to code...

One of more extra inventory slots or slots in the home

Permanently increased luck and/or immunity to the effects of negative luck

The ability to learn more skills, eg skill cap at 105 or 110 power instead of 100 (HP would still max at 100.)

Some kind of unique interaction with townsfolk or shopkeepers (I haven't thought of exactly what yet..)

[Bostock]

There is a formatting mistake in the message shown when trying to hurt holy being with holy magic - a missing space after the creature name.

[Bostock]

...and oh! There's the old typo still lying around for mushrooms of Cure Blindness - the period is missing after "the veil of darkness lifts" .

[Bostock]

...aaaaaand one more -- more pernicious this time.

Sometimes life draining attacks display the "you feel your life draining away" message, yet no skills are drained. That is, either the message is appearing in error, or skills are failing to be drained in error (shudder).

[camlost]

...aaaaaand one more -- more pernicious this time.

Sometimes life draining attacks display the "you feel your life draining away" message, yet no skills are drained. That is, either the message is appearing in error, or skills are failing to be drained in error (shudder).

If the attack reduces your skills very little, it's possible that no skills are reduced. This is actually an entirely reasonable behavior mathematically. Issue 53.

...and oh! There's the old typo still lying around for mushrooms of Cure Blindness - the period is missing after "the veil of darkness lifts" .

I can't reproduce.

There is a formatting mistake in the message shown when trying to hurt holy being with holy magic - a missing space after the creature name.

Fixed in r138.

[Bostock]

Is the period not missing, or the message not appearing? The message only appears on first use.

[camlost]

Is the period not missing, or the message not appearing? The message only appears on first use.

You have 15 Mushrooms of Blindness (a).
You eat an Orange-capped Mushroom.
The veil of darkness lifts.
You realize that you have eaten a Mushroom of Cure Blindness.  Your experience rises.
You have 98 Mushrooms of Cure Blindness (d).
You reorder some items in your pack.
You eat a Mushroom of Blindness.
A veil of darkness surrounds you.
You have 14 Mushrooms of Blindness (a).
You eat a Mushroom of Cure Blindness.
The veil of darkness lifts.
You have 97 Mushrooms of Cure Blindness (c).

I see the period when I first eat a mushroom of cure blindness. Also, I see the message every time I eat one (if blind). Finally code searching "the veil of darkness" results in two hits (phial, mushroom of cure blindness), both of which contain periods.

[camlost]

Warrior talents

In my desktop build (not in svn yet), warrior talents have been allocated to the command 'p'. I've never gotten used to using 'p' for magic, always using 'm' instead. Sangband has had a unified 'm' and 'p' commands for a long while now.

Is it ok to reuse the 'p' for warrior talents? It's a) lowercase b) right next to '[' which contains utility talents (you can switch between). Of course, you can use prf files to overwrite any changes I make, but I'd rather consider other places if 'p' is contentious.

[ekolis]

I for one wouldn't mind using "p" for warrior talents... I never used "p" for magic!

[shawnosullivan]

probably a stupid question (i didn't spend long looking for an answer), but is there any way to play sangband in non-full-screen mode?

[camlost]

probably a stupid question (i didn't spend long looking for an answer), but is there any way to play sangband in non-full-screen mode?

Go into options '=' and then User Interface '!' and edit 'a' Display Mode. Choose one of the windowed versions.

Note that this does not recreate the old "windowed" mode. You can poke around in config.txt to change the size of the window and subwindows, also.

[Bostock]

You have 15 Mushrooms of Blindness (a).
You eat an Orange-capped Mushroom.
The veil of darkness lifts.
You realize that you have eaten a Mushroom of Cure Blindness.  Your experience rises.
You have 98 Mushrooms of Cure Blindness (d).
You reorder some items in your pack.
You eat a Mushroom of Blindness.
A veil of darkness surrounds you.
You have 14 Mushrooms of Blindness (a).
You eat a Mushroom of Cure Blindness.
The veil of darkness lifts.
You have 97 Mushrooms of Cure Blindness (c).

I see the period when I first eat a mushroom of cure blindness. Also, I see the message every time I eat one (if blind). Finally code searching "the veil of darkness" results in two hits (phial, mushroom of cure blindness), both of which contain periods.

Huh. I have every reason to take your word for it, so I will. (But I could swear I saw that rogue message!)

[Bostock]

I'd also be interested in more varied curses, but I do like to speak up in defence of haggling every now and then. I think S gets the haggling just about right: it's not too onerous, and it really gives satisfaction when you get it right (e.g. not having to haggle for the same item once you've achieved the best price) and longer-term benefits (improving your relationship with the shopkeeper and resulting in them getting better stuff. Lots of variants (and V) have dropped haggling because it didn't add much - in S I think a lot of careful thought went into it, so I think it should be kept.

You know, I hate to be a pill, but I think I have to speak up once again for flipping the default on haggling, from "do haggle" to "never haggle." I mean, I guess it would be a shame to not have the functionality exposed by default, but the thing is, I still say this is an anti-feature, even "done right." The thing is, for me, haggling is *by its very nature* not **doable** right, because anything that makes shopping take even a second longer than usual is an anti-feature.

However, I'm just one guy.

Some other people's thoughts on haggling?

[Magnate]

Go into options '=' and then User Interface '!' and edit 'a' Display Mode. Choose one of the windowed versions.

Note that this does not recreate the old "windowed" mode. You can poke around in config.txt to change the size of the window and subwindows, also.

(Written on batteries in internet cafe so apologies for any errors or careless wording)

I've been playing r129 for the comp, as it's the last built version and one shouldn't really update during a comp. So apologies if some of these have been fixed in subsequent updates. I'm playing in Linux console mode (-mgcu), and I'm certain some of these are specific to that mode.

- need to double-tap escape (and esc after many commands - can get stuck looking at the town but with messages saying "that command does not work in stores")
- ! doesn't work at all as a command or in the options menu, but works in inscriptions (means I can't set up any windows!)
- backspace doesn't work anywhere
- ctrl-s hangs game (ctrl-c cancels)
- please use ~/.angband/Sangband not ~/.sangband/Sangband - the whole point of the ~/.angband/ dir is so that each variant uses a subdir under it to avoid cluttering ~
- please warn about xp loss when decreasing skills (I lost xp decreasing and buying them back, without realising it - you can un-buy points you have just bought, but un-buying points previously bought does not return xp, and it's hard to keep track of that)
- please allow trap damage to practise burglary even without killing (it does? well that's good but please also consider allowing practise from non-damaging traps like potions of blindness etc.)
- docs need to say magic oaths require 20 in realm skill (and OoI 25 not 45)
- docs need to explain Hit Rate and Average Damage on char screen (they still talk about skill bonus and deadliness)
- don't think I got notification of the Darkness talent becoming available
- docs say nothing about casting in the dark (+10% fail)
- docs still talk about choosing spells to learn but this seems to have been removed
- please let burglars pseudo unknown items in traps (perhaps only if they see it set off)
- docs need to give guidance on which scrolls are readable in the dark
- evasive monsters are WAY overpowered - by all means let them dodge missiles and melee, but not bolt spells as well! Ball attacks are very rare for the first 1/3 of the game.
- RES_EDGED is similarly impossible, e.g. groups of stone trolls make a level totally uninhabitable. Yet it does not grant any resistance to missiles, oddly.
- need a message to explain why cannot dual wield if shield slot is empty ("you are not strong enough to wield this as a secondary weapon, swap with primary?")
- docs still list devices costing 15 when it's now 16: suspect other skill costs also out-of-date
- not enough gold to replace consumables, let alone buy stuff (actually this is only a problem until about 1200' and then is disappears very very sharply - perhaps I just need to dive faster)
- consider adding DTrap border from Oangband
- my biggest gripe: Smeagol picked up Wormtongue's drop and then didn't drop it when I killed him! Normal thiefs do drop items they pick up, so I think it is either specific to uniques or to Smeagol. Presumably this is unintended. I have a savefile if you need.
- please keep gnomes, and giants. By all means add ents, druedain, whoever - the more the merrier. More detailed thoughts on weapons vs. martial arts in a future post.
- I'm taking all difficult quests, and that really slows the game down: every non-quest monster is a pushover. Difficult quests should mean more kills required and a deeper dungeon level, but not quite such OoD monsters.

Sorry to rush - keep up the good work.