FAangband 0.3.6

[Atriel]

Dammit, my previous post points only bad things
I loved the down shafts, and forests are super-cool to hang on...
The fact that that big spider that killed me so many times before is now locked somewhere i can go whenever i want is pretty good too

[Nick]

1. It seems that the auto-dump for .prf files is broken; No big problem, but slighty annoying. Squelch also being in the file is what makes me constantly mess with the file instead of just editing it directly.
I tried to delete the PRF and make a new one but same bug, the old prefs aren't automatically deleted, i have to open the file and delete them manually. I tend to use macros quite a bit, and the fact that the file for macros and options are the same might have something with it.
-> It would be cool if the squelched bits were in the character save file, not in the prf.

Ah, .prf files - my favourite topic. The way squelch is handled is certainly up for review in 0.4.0; I'll have a look at the other dumped stuff as well.

2. If i set the option 'Player colour indicates low hit points' and pick the spec Unlight, the color of a fully healed character becomes dark grey, making it very hard to see it.

This was originally meant to be a cool visual feature, along with a 'dark radius' which looked like a light radius but, well, dark. But the dark radius thing was too hard to manage, so only the dark @ remained. And maybe that's just silly now.

3. I must choose very carefully where to kill critters or open chests, because even if there are free spaces near them, if i kill them over a tree or whatever, drops just go poof... No big deal tho.

If stuff falls into trees or rubble, you should get the message "The Long Sword (4d5) disappears from view"; in this case it's still there. You can't see it, but if you walk on to the grid you can pick it up.

4. If i set 'Hide items set as squelchable' then Set Traps become a pain, because the objects are still there... I usually ended dancing the waltz instead of setting a trap right before that dragon or whatever cut the corner

Yes, this needs fixing. I'll either make setting the trap actually delete the gear, or shuffle it onto adjacent squares.

5. Probably the most important:

...and seeing Psi is responsible for this bit, I'll leave it to him to answer

I should just mention, though, that it is supposed to make rangers easier to start but harder to finish. I certainly agree with the first bit, because my one attempt at a 0.3.6 ranger made it much further than my rangers usually do, and the archery seemed noticeably better to me.

[Atriel]

If stuff falls into trees or rubble, you should get the message "The Long Sword (4d5) disappears from view"; in this case it's still there. You can't see it, but if you walk on to the grid you can pick it up.

I should just mention, though, that it is supposed to make rangers easier to start but harder to finish. I certainly agree with the first bit, because my one attempt at a 0.3.6 ranger made it much further than my rangers usually do, and the archery seemed noticeably better to me.

...and seeing Psi is responsible for this bit, I'll leave it to him to answer

LOL

Hummm cool about the bit 'disappears from view' ... I´ve lost lots of stuff then!

I agree about "easier to start", but not with "harder to finish" because the ranger only is very powerful in the hands of an almost perfect player, as we can see in the ladder... Psi got all but one endgame or near-endgame Ranger... but lots of other players got endgame and near-endgame with every other class.

Psi, if you check by, I'd like to hear your thoughts about Ranger balance and power compared to say, Assassin and Warrior too.

[Psi]

Psi, if you check by, I'd like to hear your thoughts about Ranger balance and power compared to say, Assassin and Warrior too.

I'll go through and answer all your points properly when I get too work. For now, I'll say that your post is quite refreshing for me! I was actually still worried that Rangers could do too much damage, but it seems I can rest easier now. Thanks for all your comments

[Arralen]

Wad ?

I dunno .. but IMHO vaults in mountains should be easier accessible, or at least easier perceivable ... . Notice the vault in the screeny below is enclosed of 2 layers of granite, which is hard to dig into ... and it has no influence on dungeon layout .. and the level feeling is only "luck turning", what could be one OOD monster as well, I think. Or in this case, the mini-vault to the right.
Few low-level characters would be able to detect the bigger vault - would you spend several ?oMap on every mountain level just because of a slighty-better-than-nothing level feeling?

Dunno how to achieve that better detect- or accessibility ... maybe connect them via a small path complete with guardian monster? Or simply make ?oMap much cheaper and have everyone carry a pick around

Picks are horribly underused and neglected anyway ... says Nulin the dwarven ranger
.. who does not carry one because he digs into granite with his bare .. axe :P

[Psi]

I dunno .. but IMHO vaults in mountains should be easier accessible

In my opinion that is a bug (and has been a problem in the mountains since the wilderness vaults were first introduced).

[Nick]

In my opinion that is a bug (and has been a problem in the mountains since the wilderness vaults were first introduced).

Yes, agreed. Now that I've actually got mountains generating reasonably, I'll have a look at this (and the stairs encased in granite on Amon Rudh).

[Psi]

5. Probably the most important:

Ok...lets make a start then. I could be here a while. First some background... my first ranger win was Anadyn. Bandobras noted on the dump: "Out of curiosity: weren't the late-game arrows too powerful and the early-game too weak? (changes in O 1.1 suggest these)" which I wholeheartedly agreed with. My next ranger winner was Bogspotter who beat Morgoth without losing a single hitpoint. I then won with Psironic who defeated Morgoth as an Ironman ranger with a x4 bow and Totila, though admittedly she struggled with archery (I had found no brands/slays that affected Morgoth) and resorted to melee. I then won again with Reg before I started making my own changes.

To make the changes I took a level 50 ranger equipped with Bregor and built a table of average damages with various dice arrows. I also looked at criticals and the affect of brandings.

The changes made in missile damage seem to be balance-breaking in two ways; I am bad with rangers and never won with a Ranger in [O] even having a couple that have gone down to dlvl 9x, clvl50, endgame equipment. (but won w ranger in [V], and already won twice-in-a-row [O] with warriors). I like warriors, but I feel that this change might have weakened the Ranger a lot. Also ranger have to collect, manage and enchant stacks of arrows, and when best arrows r gone, that's it, no more big damage. Ranger must fight in the open, vulnerable to summons and everything else.

Yes, the changes weaken Rangers a lot in the end game (though they are now a lot easier at the start), but that is because Rangers became ridiculously powerful at the end. They make decent fighters, have a fantastic array of spells and can take down any single enemy from a distance with ease and almost in slow motion with the number of shots per turn.

About the balance of RANGER and WARRIOR.
In [V], a ranger with good equipment could easily do 1600+ damage per turn with its best arrows, while a warrior meleeing would hardly reach 1200 with a big weapon like Doomcaller and 2 RoDams, much less with other weapons. These calcs were done by Timo a long time ago in the RGRA, if i remember well. I don't know if this was changed from them and how tho...

This only highlights how overpowered archery is in V - which is why you will see characters of every class getting a (+9,+9) longbow as soon as possible.
In my mind a Ranger should do less damage than a warrior, simply because he has the massive advantage of doing it from a safe distance.

I did myself some calcs (by the time of [O] 0.70) to compare [O] Ranger ranged vs Warrior melee, and figured that an elf ranger (best bow skill of all races, with skill equipment focus and build completely made for shooting, could crit ~40% of the time) in [O] would already deal less damage than Warrior melee, both with near-optimal equipment and good arrows; Breath attenuation in [O] balanced things out a bit in some situations;

As I mentioned earlier - O 0.70 was considered to have too powerful archery in the endgame which is why arrow dice was changed in O 1.1. In which case the Warrior will do more damage still than the Ranger per turn (comparing melee to archery of course).

Now, those changes made:
- The ranger deal yet less damage late-game.

Exactly what I was aiming for - and until I saw your thread I was actually thinking I hadn't done enough (and to be honest I'm still not sure).

- Criticals now are UNCOOL and also do little added damage; Marksman is now a pretty weak spec. It was really cool to do a really big crit of 200+ damage (one shot in 100 or so) that would take out 2 stars of something big... and know that the next shot could take like 3 hp of my target heh...

Well with endgame kit and ego enhanced ammo you can do over 200 *average* damage now. The main reason for 'squashing' the ammo into more dice was to eliminate the massive criticals you could get (and I mean massive). Criticals are still effective (extra dice always are), but not quite as ridiculous as they were.

- The damage potential for the first tier missiles is in some cases, BETTER than of the second tier missiles! Of course, taking into account the finding of missiles with similar added dices. This could be fixed by making the late missiles have 2 dices instead of 3, with more damage; Of course, this apply only if the way [FA] calculates missile damage is unchanged from [O]...

Yes, I've looked at all these things in great detail. However the changes you suggest effectively take damage back to where it was, which makes endgame Rangers a munchkinish option. I also like the way that 2d5 arrows are better than 3d3. It means that normal arrows don't become junk when seeker arrows become native.

I am taking into account rapid shots too now as a spec, more valuable than marksman with the current missile dices; But still, it is only a spec; It seems balanced raising max shots from 2.5 to 3, but Athletics, Piercing Shot and Marksman (with old dices) were incredibly valuable, on par with the new Rapid Shots.

Marksman is only of much use in the early game as it is not culmulative with the criticals you get anyway as a high level archer. Rapid fire is by far the best spec for a Ranger (and I had to tone that down considerably from the previous versions of FA where it gave an extra 2 shots at max dex!).

My sugestions: either:
- Leave damage as it was before, but lower all damages from the high-tier missiles; 1d6, 1d8 and 1d10 are already very good values for seeker shots, arrows and bolts respectively. This would make Marksman on par with Rapid Shots. and completely fix the uncool crits... but this might make the sling a little bit too weak for a rogue slinger late game, in this case, balance in the speed of shooting.

What would you do about standard ammo though? 1d5, 1d6 and 1d7 are too low. Raise these and you are almost on top of your seeker ammo. Then what about enhanced ammo?

- Make dices be in the middle range between before and now: Seeker Shot 2d4, Seeker Arrow 2d5, Seeker Bolt 2d6; This would also fix somewhat the uncool-critical weak marksman problem, but still marksman would be weaker than rapid shots.

I looked at this last year some time. The problem is that 2d7 is just too high for an enhanced arrow - we could do this if we only allowed ammo to gain 1 additional side (I've already reduced this from 3 to 2 as it is).

- Just edited in: How about 1d7, 1d8, 1dX for the seeker ammos? That way slings wouldn't be too weak, arrows would deal slighty less damage than before and slighty more than now, and i'm not sure about bolts... And then leave the first tier missiles multi-diced, as criticals have little effect in the start and the multi dices would make them worse later on.. Heck, thinking how closer the actual dices are now, could even be this way (normal and seeker): Shots: 2d3 and 1d6; Arrows 2d4 and 1d8; Bolts: 2d5 and 1d10; heh. Off to make a ranger to test...

Unless you change the enhancement mechanic depending on the type of ammo, then enhanced 2d6 arrows have a better average than enhanced 1d10 seeker arrows.

I agree with some points, but we must take into account that this dude (PSI) has nerves of steel and reflexes of a kilrathi and is very probably the best player of [O] combat variants and [FA]:

Thanks, though I think that title (along with many others) belongs to evariste.

>Rangers can do probably twice as much damage a round as a magic user (even taking misses into account)
>and at the expense of just 3 or 4 arrows rather than 30-40 MP.

Yea, but this is part of game balance; Magic users have only get the book and cast away, !restore mana, cast away...
Rangers have to get arrows, enchant, preserve and save them, do all those boring arrow-related stuff... and good arrows don't last forever.
Actually, the necromancer can deal more damage per energy than the OLD ranger with some damage builds (the extreme being Fastcasting, HMagic, Channeling and main spell:Mana Bolt(Frightful Realms), using only 7x energy per cast) and the mage is designed to be the king of utility spells for everything, not be a high-damage dealer anyway...

Yes, but a ranger can also fight and has the best set of utility spells (for a non-full caster) going. A ranger is still drastically easier than the poor mage (but that is a whole new issue to be tackled).

>Ranged attackers obviously have an advantage against Morgoth, because he is going to waste turns moving
>whilst melee chars will get hit by Morgoth or by his spells every turn.
>Another thing is that I may just have been lucky... I remember taking Psironic up against Morgoth
>and she got hit by ancient dragon summons almost every time Morgoth came into LoS. Thankfully I was
>only hit by one more after I lost my _BanishEvil otherwise things would have got really tricky.

Yes, that's the point... The ranger is ranged, but do not have many choices to deal with the summons... Mages and necros already have their tools in their spell lists. I found it a pain killing mages with ranger in [O], especially the ones that could summon, because they deal full damage on me and also can call for their pets. In the other hand, most breathers go down easy.

Then TO/blink/melee/whatever - the ranger is not a one trick pony.

>I think I favour the speed increase - otherwise casters who go the charm offensive route could slow
>Morgoth to +10 which is ridiculous. So I think +25 to speed and maybe the rest of the problem is still
>more with rangers/archery rather than Morgoth himself (I find all uniques a lot easier with rangers).

Hum... was Morgoth nerfed? This is bad. I usually tend to overprepare late game just to completely wipe the floor with him, going "huh, didnt think he was such a wimp". Ok, i know that against him i can use all the [O] *HARD EARNED* healing and consumables i've found thru the game (IE no wasting !heal against most midlvl uniques)... but in [FA] consumables are sooo easy to find and can also ask the town guys to get them that it would be already easier to deal with 30 spd morgoth...

Morgoth was modified in a previous version. He gained elemental immunity (he only resists poison in O), his spells were improved but he went from 30 to 20 speed. I've but him up to 25 in 036, but wouldn't be averse to him back at 30.

The ranger is also already pretty hard to play for an average player... having to balance everything and decide where to toss the best arrows.
My point is that reducing the multipliers for slays and brands might be already a big nerf to the Ranger, reducing maximum damage, and this change might be on par with the fact that we have more of everything (including ammo) in [FA], but also messing with damage dice might be too much; Yes, the ranger can deal sometimes more damage per turn than some classes, but already less than melee fighting and less than some spellcaster builds, and has all the annoyances of saving and managing ammo. The reward for that i think should be damage slighty better than other classes, as long as his best arrows last.

I disagree. I had to reduce the slays/brands because damage output was still so high *after* my dice changes.

Then, i might be wrong in all of this... just my feelings of balance as it is now

Thanks for all the feedback - it is much appreciated.

I agree about "easier to start", but not with "harder to finish" because the ranger only is very powerful in the hands of an almost perfect player, as we can see in the ladder... Psi got all but one endgame or near-endgame Ranger... but lots of other players got endgame and near-endgame with every other class.

Psi, if you check by, I'd like to hear your thoughts about Ranger balance and power compared to say, Assassin and Warrior too.

Assassin: probably my favourite class. Good at everything. Well balanced throughout the game.
Warrior: just ploughs through in the early game! I prefer characters with utility spells, but once you are kitted out they are fairly straightforward.
Now Rangers... prior to 036 they were a pain to get going as early archery was so weak and it takes a while for their melee to get going. But once you did they were unstoppable. With a decent weapon and a heroism spell their melee is good enough for most enemies and anything vaguely tough you just line up down a corridor and let fly from your quiver. Rarely does a monster reach you before it is dead. Even with the changes in 036 I took down Gothmog with archery with Barkus and that was only a x3 bow. That character should have won but I was playing sloppily and failed casting Herbal Healing (another amazing spell for a Ranger) when I should have !Healed.

My guess is that you try to kill everything with your bow (and hence your concerns about supply of arrows), whereas I use my sword where I can (and it is safe to). I wouldn't expect to attempt a pit with my bow for example. The thing is that one-on-one the Ranger is still supreme - uniques fall very (maybe too) easily. Yes, they are more vulnerable to crowds of monsters up close, but that is the trade off.

Thanks again for all the comments. I'd be very interested in other opinions too, because if I am in the minority, then Nick may wish to arbitrate and make appropriate changes in 040!

[Nick]

A ranger is still drastically easier than the poor mage (but that is a whole new issue to be tackled).

This is one of my big tasks for 0.4.0. Mages should be almost unrecognisable by the time I'm finished with them. My rough plan is for them to start out with low damage (as now) but more tricks, and build to have decent damage at the end which can be improved with more trickery.

Morgoth was modified in a previous version. He gained elemental immunity (he only resists poison in O), his spells were improved but he went from 30 to 20 speed. I've but him up to 25 in 036, but wouldn't be averse to him back at 30.

This was done for thematic reasons - I really wanted him to be more of a summoner than a fighter. I think I'd rather increase his summoning (or some variant of it) than speed.

Thanks again for all the comments. I'd be very interested in other opinions too, because if I am in the minority, then Nick may wish to arbitrate and make appropriate changes in 040!

I'm liking early game rangers; late game you'll probably have to ask someone else...

[buzzkill]

Few low-level characters would be able to detect the bigger vault - would you spend several ?oMap on every mountain level just because of a slighty-better-than-nothing level feeling?

So, you don't find the vault. What's the big deal?

[Mr.Peanut]

A Few Noobly Questions

1) Does detect traps permanently mark an area as trap free. Is that what the DTraps string in lower left corner means?
2) I am playing a dark-elf, a race that has infravision, but at night in the wilderness I still can not see anything without a light. I don't understand. Is this only a dungeon effect? Does the unlight skill allow reading in dark in wilderness areas?
3) Best weapon choices for dark-elf assassin?
4) Any idea when next DS port will be released(hopefully with "lazy move" option custom movement key delay time when not in menus)?

[Psi]

1) Does detect traps permanently mark an area as trap free. Is that what the DTraps string in lower left corner means?
2) I am playing a dark-elf, a race that has infravision, but at night in the wilderness I still can not see anything without a light. I don't understand. Is this only a dungeon effect? Does the unlight skill allow reading in dark in wilderness areas?
3) Best weapon choices for dark-elf assassin?
4) Any idea when next DS port will be released(hopefully with "lazy move" option custom movement key delay time when not in menus)?

1. Yes
2. I've just tested with a Dark Elf without a light source during the night and I can see warm-blooded creatures within 20' as expected (when in LoS of course). At 30' I cannot see them - also as expected. Unlight allows reading in the dark anywhere.
3. Something light like a sabre.
4. One for Nick maybe

[Nick]

4) Any idea when next DS port will be released(hopefully with "lazy move" option custom movement key delay time when not in menus)?

I'm hoping to get a DS port of 0.3.6 out soon, but I'm having problems with my build setup. It won't have the lazy move option either. I can say that there will be more and better DS stuff happening in the future, and maybe one day the present.

[Mr.Peanut]

2. I've just tested with a Dark Elf without a light source during the night and I can see warm-blooded creatures within 20' as expected (when in LoS of course). At 30' I cannot see them - also as expected. Unlight allows reading in the dark anywhere.

Ah. I didn't realise infravision would be so physically correct (and literal to its description). I expected to see in the dark.
Like I said, noobly questions.

[Arralen]

Weapon Smith (in Belegost) is fixed to 5000 gold
Actually, I haven't been paying attention if the other shops may be "fixed" as well, but this one is the most annoying to me atm I'm pretty shure the shop owner has changed several times, but the cap for prices has stayed the same.
edit: Ok, went over to Khazad Dum and found the weapon smith having a cap of 5000 as well


!oSpeed is missing from the alchemy shops
They're generally very scarce. I found 1 in the dungeon, and had 3 at the black market, but they seemingly never show up at the Alchemy Shop !


Rings/Amulets of Searching/Skill/+stat+ are pretty useless,
as by the time they show up aroud dlvl 30 you already have the first (rand)arts and you're looking to plug resistance holes rather than to get +2 searching or something. Either make them show up much earlier (dlvl 15+) or make them more interesting.
IMHO, having one item "of something" seemingly just because we have some flag and it so terribly convenient to simply e.g. slab that flag on a ring to get a "magical item" doesn't really make for interesting finds. I would rather like to see more "complicated" egos, randarts and arts ... .